***The Official Running Thread***

[Kento]

That's an awesome area - right where I grew up! Was cool having all that in my backyard. Very cool you're getting runs in up there. A lot of mountain bikers but for the most part, there's enough room.

Probably a better trail-running song than Megadeth's High Speed Dirt.

That shin bruise has been acting up and my own fault for not really RICEing it, kind of opposite, ran 60+ miles on it instead the following week. The 24 miles on Saturday may have not been the best.

Skipped the recovery run on Sunday to rest/ice/elevate it, took Monday off to do the same. Did 8 miles on the treadmill last night and it generally feels OK. It's that first 30-60 seconds of standing up where the blood rushes back down to my feet and it hurts like molten lead pouring through. A little concerning since I've really only had that sensation with broken bones but I guess swelling was just that bad. Couldn't see it until a couple days ago as discoloration was around my entire leg. Fin apparently had hit me lengthwise across the shin - thankful for the 5/4 suit because that could have been a whole lot worse.

 

[One-Off]

That's an awesome area - right where I grew up! Was cool having all that in my backyard. Very cool you're getting runs in up there. A lot of mountain bikers but for the most part, there's enough room.

Probably a better trail-running song than Megadeth's High Speed Dirt.

That shin bruise has been acting up and my own fault for not really RICEing it, kind of opposite, ran 60+ miles on it instead the following week. The 24 miles on Saturday may have not been the best.

Skipped the recovery run on Sunday to rest/ice/elevate it, took Monday off to do the same. Did 8 miles on the treadmill last night and it generally feels OK. It's that first 30-60 seconds of standing up where the blood rushes back down to my feet and it hurts like molten lead pouring through. A little concerning since I've really only had that sensation with broken bones but I guess swelling was just that bad. Couldn't see it until a couple days ago as discoloration was around my entire leg. Fin apparently had hit me lengthwise across the shin - thankful for the 5/4 suit because that could have been a whole lot worse.

You're a geologist right? Did seeing the rock formations around there inspire you?

Injuries suck! I woke up this AM and that weird pirouette I did trying to avoid a fall on the switchback must have pulled a muscle or something. The top of my hip bone hurts, even to touch. I'm just glad it's not my back. Tomorrow I was planning on trying my first intervals in three months. Might have to put that on hold. We'll see how I feel tomorrow.

 

[Kento]

You're a geologist right? Did seeing the rock formations around there inspire you?

Injuries suck! I woke up this AM and that weird pirouette I did trying to avoid a fall on the switchback must have pulled a muscle or something. The top of my hip bone hurts, even to touch. I'm just glad it's not my back. Tomorrow I was planning on trying my first intervals in three months. Might have to put that on hold. We'll see how I feel tomorrow.

We had very many geology-related field trips in elementary school. Those fossil beds on Old Topanga, crazy how much A) they've been depleted and B) it is a shitshow where you can't even park there now I think? That place alone was good for 2 a year. A lot of time in Topanga State Park, that's for sure.

Sucks about the muscle pull. Definitely listen to your body - what's a day of rest anyways. That's what I try to tell myself at least. Just did a 4 mile jog and my legs felt heavier than normal, sweated quite a bit too. Too much salt intake or something - who knows.

I forgot where Duffy mentioned about Gatorade being poison. I feel like it's better than water but I know there has to be something better out there. He mentioned maltodextrin and at first I was thinking that's in a lot of junk food but I'd seen it prominent somewhere before. Yeah, the GU gels, #1 ingredient. Hmm. So maybe not so bad after all. Or would that be too much of a good thing? And where would you get a good one which doesn't tweak the stomach and make you do this after a mile or three:

 

[john4surf]

when people run this much, do they taper off as time goes by, or is it more common to one day just stop all together?

it doesn’t seem sustainable, which makes me wonder what the long term considerations are

I ran in the early 1970s to around 1983-84. 5 or maybe it was 6 marathons, a number of 100 mile weeks and lots of mid to high mile ‘fun’ runs.

I picked up cigars around the time I stopped running (used to smoke cigarettes from about 15 to 40 years old). Stopped smoking cigars a few years later because I was inhaling too much (never restarted smoking or running afterwards).

Strictly antidotal…. I changed shoes after every 3 - 4 months of running. Into my 69s and 70s I’ve dealt with arthritis in both knees but don’t blame it on long distance running, just the cards my body was dealt. It was “easy” for me to stop as work had me on planes all over the planet until I finally retired.

 

[stringcheese]

Having a heart condition I've delved into this pretty deeply.

First of all, a warning- there were a couple of studies done back in 2012 that declared- LONG DISTANCE RUNNING IS BAD FOR YOU! They got a lot of press and media coverage. Upon closer scrutiny it was found they "adjusted" certain parameters in order to compare "like" groups. The factors they "adjusted" were BMI, blood pressure and cholesterol. Hmmm. In the words of the article linked below, it was like saying, "If you ignore the known health benefits of running, running has no health benefits."

The reserachers eventually had to amend their statements to- running is really, really good for you. Running a lot (more than 20 miles a week) does not confer added benefits, but neither does it create more risk. Their revised statement did not get the same amount of press and was kind of ignored, so many people were left with RUNNING IS BAD FOR YOU.

Then another scientist began publishing studies with a much, much larger database that showed people running more (at least 40 miles a week) were 26% less likely to develop coronary heart desease than those running only 13 miles a week.

What to Know About Running and Your Heart

We’ve all seen the scary headlines. Here’s the truth behind the hype.

www.runnersworld.com

I also had a back "injury" so was concerned about the effect of running on my spine and joints. As far as musculo skeletal issues-

How To Start A Running Program For Beginners

Whatever your running goal is, here are tips on how to get started and what you should know.

health.clevelandclinic.org

Does Long-Distance Running Cause Arthritis? - Cary Orthopaedics

Some studies have shown higher rateS of arthritis in runners while others have shown no association or possibly a benefit to running.

www.caryortho.com

The picture gets a little cloudier for ultra running-

Is Ultrarunning Bad for Long-Term Health?

Is ultrarunning unhealthy? Coach Jason Koop delves into new research from Vokler Scheer, MD and Nick Tiller, PhD. for the answer.

trainright.com

Health Risks Associated with Ultramarathons

Running, even extremely long distances, can be done with minimal long-term health impacts for most people. Here’s what to know about the risks associated with running ultras, according to experts.

www.trailrunnermag.com

but the conclusion is-

Article 1-

1-There is currently little compelling evidence that normal ultramarathon training is deleterious to one’s physical health.
2-If you are concerned about the role ultramarathon running plays in your physical health, considering limiting your training to 12 hours per week during peak weeks and racing only once or twice per year. While you’d be hard pressed to find a concrete scientific guideline in this area, both recommendations seem to be safe as well as practical.
3-Your relationship with ultrarunning should extend beyond the physical. Ultrarunning and training for ultramarathon events should fulfill your psychological and emotional needs as well!

Article 2-

"So, are ultramarathons safe? For the most part, yes. With informed decisions about which races to do, how often to race, and how well you are recovered, most people can participate in ultramarathons without negative outcomes. Running is good for your health and ultramarathons can be a fun way to challenge yourself and compete with like-minded people.



FInally, this study said half marathons were the healthiest distance=

Health status of recreational runners over 10-km up to ultra-marathon distance based on data of the NURMI Study Step 2 - Scientific Reports

Endurance running is well-documented to affect health beneficially. However, data are still conflicting in terms of which race distance is associated with the maximum health effects to be obtained. Therefore, the aim of this study was to compare the health status of endurance runners over...

www.nature.com

I have come to enjoy running almost as much as surfing, so like surfing, I will do it as long as I am able.


My only caveat to runners is make sure you're dong the strength training too.

By not sustainable i meant mentally, and with regard to fitting it into life. Specifically for those who are having to work themselves up to do it for goals/achievements. not physical breakdown of the body. Loss of motivation when the reward system in the brain isn’t giving you what it was in the beginning.
Like @Kento talked about, going all out on something then walking away forever.

As for the studies….there are like four fitness studies in the history of science that meet the criteria for drawing actual conclusions from, but a quick look at humans as animals will show you running a long way is kinda our thing. It’s will power that is the finite resource.

 

[One-Off]

We had very many geology-related field trips in elementary school. Those fossil beds on Old Topanga, crazy how much A) they've been depleted and B) it is a shitshow where you can't even park there now I think? That place alone was good for 2 a year. A lot of time in Topanga State Park, that's for sure.

Sucks about the muscle pull. Definitely listen to your body - what's a day of rest anyways. That's what I try to tell myself at least. Just did a 4 mile jog and my legs felt heavier than normal, sweated quite a bit too. Too much salt intake or something - who knows.

I forgot where Duffy mentioned about Gatorade being poison. I feel like it's better than water but I know there has to be something better out there. He mentioned maltodextrin and at first I was thinking that's in a lot of junk food but I'd seen it prominent somewhere before. Yeah, the GU gels, #1 ingredient. Hmm. So maybe not so bad after all. Or would that be too much of a good thing? And where would you get a good one which doesn't tweak the stomach and make you do this after a mile or three:

View attachment 174554

Never heard about fossil beds in Topanga. We hike all the time there and also volunteer from time to time doing trail maintenance with a Sierra Club group. In Old Topanga I can only think of Hondo Canyon which has no parking except a few spots on the street. Or Red Rock Canyon which has a small lot. Of course we tend to avoid the valley side of the mountains because of the heat.

I have to use Gatorade for the near future. My wife bought this huge can of powder. “It was on sale.” I have read (or seen in a video…I’ve been down the rabbit hole watching anti sugar videos…google Dr. Lustig) that the only time it’s OK to consume sugar is while you’re exercising. Just like salt is bad for you…unless you’re exercising. When I watch videos about ultras the fare at the aid stations makes me hungry- quesadillas and bacon!

I ran in the early 1970s to around 1983-84. 5 or maybe it was 6 marathons, a number of 100 mile weeks and lots of mid to high mile ‘fun’ runs.

I picked up cigars around the time I stopped running (used to smoke cigarettes from about 15 to 40 years old). Stopped smoking cigars a few years later because I was inhaling too much (never restarted smoking or running afterwards).

Strictly antidotal…. I changed shoes after every 3 - 4 months of running. Into my 69s and 70s I’ve dealt with arthritis in both knees but don’t blame it on long distance running, just the cards my body was dealt. It was “easy” for me to stop as work had me on planes all over the planet until I finally retired.

I watched the “Madmen” series and thought the amount of cigarette smoking they were doing (early 60’s) must have been exaggerated. But then I remember my dad and uncles almost all smoked.

 

[john4surf]

We had very many geology-related field trips in elementary school. Those fossil beds on Old Topanga, crazy how much A) they've been depleted and B) it is a shitshow where you can't even park there now I think? That place alone was good for 2 a year. A lot of time in Topanga State Park, that's for sure.

Sucks about the muscle pull. Definitely listen to your body - what's a day of rest anyways. That's what I try to tell myself at least. Just did a 4 mile jog and my legs felt heavier than normal, sweated quite a bit too. Too much salt intake or something - who knows.

I forgot where Duffy mentioned about Gatorade being poison. I feel like it's better than water but I know there has to be something better out there. He mentioned maltodextrin and at first I was thinking that's in a lot of junk food but I'd seen it prominent somewhere before. Yeah, the GU gels, #1 ingredient. Hmm. So maybe not so bad after all. Or would that be too much of a good thing? And where would you get a good one which doesn't tweak the stomach and make you do this after a mile or three:

View attachment 174554

COSTCO sells Liquid IV which is pretty good. A retired FBI pal told me about it, said the Las Vegas search and rescue crew carry Liquid IV packets when they’re searching for lost souls in the desert. Lots of electrolytes, lots of different flavors. In my case, during a routine annual with my cardiologist he reminded me that a lot of us older (elderly) patients don’t hydrate enough and encouraged me to drink up. Liquid IV makes it tolerable to drink something other than a good single malt

 

[One-Off]

By not sustainable i meant mentally, and with regard to fitting it into life. Specifically for those who are having to work themselves up to do it for goals/achievements. not physical breakdown of the body. Loss of motivation when the reward system in the brain isn’t giving you what it was in the beginning.
Like @Kento talked about, going all out on something then walking away forever.

As for the studies….there are like four fitness studies in the history of science that meet the criteria for drawing actual conclusions from, but a quick look at humans as animals will show you running a long way is kinda our thing. It’s will power that is the finite resource.

At my age I have to adjust goals. I will never top my marathon PR. When I PRd I was only running twice a week. Now I’m retired and can devote more time to it. “Age group” placings might get better and better. The next age groups up the number of participants dwindle dramatically.

Kind of like surfing or hiking - the atmospherics, being outdoors and in nature- make it rewarding. If you get a chance read “Born to Run.” He talks about the return to running for the pure joy of it. I’ve posted this video a few times but it never gets old for me-

 

[Buck_86]

We had very many geology-related field trips in elementary school. Those fossil beds on Old Topanga, crazy how much A) they've been depleted and B) it is a shitshow where you can't even park there now I think? That place alone was good for 2 a year. A lot of time in Topanga State Park, that's for sure.

Sucks about the muscle pull. Definitely listen to your body - what's a day of rest anyways. That's what I try to tell myself at least. Just did a 4 mile jog and my legs felt heavier than normal, sweated quite a bit too. Too much salt intake or something - who knows.

I forgot where Duffy mentioned about Gatorade being poison. I feel like it's better than water but I know there has to be something better out there. He mentioned maltodextrin and at first I was thinking that's in a lot of junk food but I'd seen it prominent somewhere before. Yeah, the GU gels, #1 ingredient. Hmm. So maybe not so bad after all. Or would that be too much of a good thing? And where would you get a good one which doesn't tweak the stomach and make you do this after a mile or three:

View attachment 174554

I usually throw a Nuun tablet in my soft flask or have one with water before/after the run. Way better than Gatorade all around.

 

[john4surf]

 

[Chocki]

 

[Kento]

Never heard about fossil beds in Topanga. We hike all the time there and also volunteer from time to time doing trail maintenance with a Sierra Club group. In Old Topanga I can only think of Hondo Canyon which has no parking except a few spots on the street. Or Red Rock Canyon which has a small lot. Of course we tend to avoid the valley side of the mountains because of the heat.

I have to use Gatorade for the near future. My wife bought this huge can of powder. “It was on sale.” I have read (or seen in a video…I’ve been down the rabbit hole watching anti sugar videos…google Dr. Lustig) that the only time it’s OK to consume sugar is while you’re exercising. Just like salt is bad for you…unless you’re exercising. When I watch videos about ultras the fare at the aid stations makes me hungry- quesadillas and bacon!

It's just on the valley side of OTC. You can't park at the actual outcrop anymore because combo of people easing in and out at 5 mpg while Moto GP guys are cranking around corners at 50. But you can park on the Topanga side and carefully walk in.

This is what the outcrop looks like as of 2021. Crazy how much the scree has been picked over since early-mid 1980s. Turritella fossils are the main find but I've found fossilized clams, oysters, even a scallop or two. But the layer goes horizontally into that hillside so it's all but infinite.



Didn't even realize it but have some of the Liquid IV from long ago; actually it expired a few weeks ago but figure that doesn't really make a difference that far out. Will give that a try, see how that goes. Nuun tablets also not a bad idea.

By not sustainable i meant mentally, and with regard to fitting it into life. Specifically for those who are having to work themselves up to do it for goals/achievements. not physical breakdown of the body. Loss of motivation when the reward system in the brain isn’t giving you what it was in the beginning.
Like @Kento talked about, going all out on something then walking away forever.

As for the studies….there are like four fitness studies in the history of science that meet the criteria for drawing actual conclusions from, but a quick look at humans as animals will show you running a long way is kinda our thing. It’s will power that is the finite resource.

Just need to pick your spots and prioritize things as they come up. One thing I have found repeatedly is that, because of muscle memory, as long as you don't get yourself completely in decrepit shape, things that you have cast aside for a while, you end up getting better at it than when you left it. Something about a fresh outlook on it all.

Read the same about distance running being what we are conditioned to do, Born to Run and other books get into that too, running down our prey. With all the trees and brush, good luck, but I always fantasize about running down a deer or feral pig and bringing it back home for dinner. The deer aren't very risk-averse, they stop and stare, so you could probably tackle them on that first initial burst. Although most likely I'd get hoofed/tusked for my troubles. Like a dog chasing a car - yeah, you caught it, now TF what? It's a good dream.


Running down a turkey on the other hand is hardly sporting at all. Living up here for a while now... I can't believe people actually hunt turkey and think they accomplished something (you'd better be eating your kill). It's even easier than using a net to catch anchovies from the chum boat.

 

[nolibos]

when people run this much, do they taper off as time goes by, or is it more common to one day just stop all t

By not sustainable i meant mentally, and with regard to fitting it into life. Specifically for those who are having to work themselves up to do it for goals/achievements. not physical breakdown of the body. Loss of motivation when the reward system in the brain isn’t giving you what it was in the beginning.
Like @Kento talked about, going all out on something then walking away forever.

As for the studies….there are like four fitness studies in the history of science that meet the criteria for drawing actual conclusions from, but a quick look at humans as animals will show you running a long way is kinda our thing. It’s will power that is the finite resource.

Around 2011 I got into long distance trail running in the hopes of staying in shape for surfing (kids were young). Like Kento I got into training for and running ultras. It was also fun exploring the hundreds of miles of trails we have in the SF north bay and trying to create longer and longer loops. When covid hit my kids were old enough to be home alone and then I remembered that I am a surfer first(I can surf daily again) and now I can't believe I used to run so much.

The one thing I miss the most is that point in a 100 mile race around mile 80 when all of the BS/ego is stripped away and everyone is experiencing extreme emotions, suffering, elation. Since it takes at least six months of hard training through the winter surf season, I don't think i will ever do a 100 miler again. No regrets.

 

[One-Off]

It's just on the valley side of OTC. You can't park at the actual outcrop anymore because combo of people easing in and out at 5 mpg while Moto GP guys are cranking around corners at 50. But you can park on the Topanga side and carefully walk in.

This is what the outcrop looks like as of 2021. Crazy how much the scree has been picked over since early-mid 1980s. Turritella fossils are the main find but I've found fossilized clams, oysters, even a scallop or two. But the layer goes horizontally into that hillside so it's all but infinite.
View attachment 174634


Didn't even realize it but have some of the Liquid IV from long ago; actually it expired a few weeks ago but figure that doesn't really make a difference that far out. Will give that a try, see how that goes. Nuun tablets also not a bad idea.



Just need to pick your spots and prioritize things as they come up. One thing I have found repeatedly is that, because of muscle memory, as long as you don't get yourself completely in decrepit shape, things that you have cast aside for a while, you end up getting better at it than when you left it. Something about a fresh outlook on it all.

Read the same about distance running being what we are conditioned to do, Born to Run and other books get into that too, running down our prey. With all the trees and brush, good luck, but I always fantasize about running down a deer or feral pig and bringing it back home for dinner. The deer aren't very risk-averse, they stop and stare, so you could probably tackle them on that first initial burst. Although most likely I'd get hoofed/tusked for my troubles. Like a dog chasing a car - yeah, you caught it, now TF what? It's a good dream.


Running down a turkey on the other hand is hardly sporting at all. Living up here for a while now... I can't believe people actually hunt turkey and think they accomplished something (you'd better be eating your kill). It's even easier than using a net to catch anchovies from the chum boat.

I don’t know about the chasing down deer. Have you ever seen them bounce through brush or effortlessly bound up a steep hill?In that video I linked above he says humans, even Usain Bolt, couldn’t catch a squirrel.

Today I found the weak link in my body- that pesky right knee (distal hamstring ligament/tendon). I did my first intervals in three months and as soon as I started the first one it began to hurt and I had to back off. It got better as I did more. I managed to do 5 four minute intervals at 90% HR and even got to 166 (my measured max is 168). We’ll see how it feels tomorrow. I have a feeling my calves are going to be sore. But it felt good finally letting go of the brakes.

 

[Kento]

I don’t know about the chasing down deer. Have you ever seen them bounce through brush or effortlessly bound up a steep hill?
In that video I linked above he says humans, even Usain Bolt, couldn’t catch a squirrel.

Oh it wouldn't be easy with the deer - you'd need a long open plain with endurance and speed greater than mine to tire one out. Maybe if you shine a flashlight in their eyes. I think that's also considered cheating. The squirrels are also tame. A thalidomide victim could grab them off the fencepost. And get plague/rabies.

 

[One-Off]

Around 2011 I got into long distance trail running in the hopes of staying in shape for surfing (kids were young). Like Kento I got into training for and running ultras. It was also fun exploring the hundreds of miles of trails we have in the SF north bay and trying to create longer and longer loops. When covid hit my kids were old enough to be home alone and then I remembered that I am a surfer first(I can surf daily again) and now I can't believe I used to run so much.

The one thing I miss the most is that point in a 100 mile race around mile 80 when all of the BS/ego is stripped away and everyone is experiencing extreme emotions, suffering, elation. Since it takes at least six months of hard training through the winter surf season, I don't think i will ever do a 100 miler again. No regrets.

I hear you about surfing. I got into running to stay in shape for surfing. This winter I did not sacrifice surfing for running. Maybe the opposite. Now I’m afraid winter’s about over and I won’t be missing much by going running.

I probably don’t have what it takes to be an ultra marathoner. I never enjoyed the pain cave. I loved the elation when you got out of it. The last couple of miles of a marathon I would always find myself thinking, “Why the fuk am I doing this? PAYING to do this?! “. Then the second I pass the finish line I’d be looking at my time thinking, “I could do better.”

The unofficial marathon I ran on Tuesday might be teaching me something new. No timing, no crowds, no bragging rights. Just doing it. My wife asked me, “You’re not planning on running a marathon every week are you?” Actually …

 

[npsp]

COSTCO sells Liquid IV which is pretty good. A retired FBI pal told me about it, said the Las Vegas search and rescue crew carry Liquid IV packets when they’re searching for lost souls in the desert. Lots of electrolytes, lots of different flavors. In my case, during a routine annual with my cardiologist he reminded me that a lot of us older (elderly) patients don’t hydrate enough and encouraged me to drink up. Liquid IV makes it tolerable to drink something other than a good single malt

Liquid IV works really well. It's saved us a couple of times on hikes when we underestimated how much water to bring and/or forgot our filters. My wife also says it helps her combat altitude sickness.

 

[Kento]

Test results - the Strawberry flavor of Liquid IV is not good.

8.1 mile run in 1:03:30, felt good, cruised. Beautiful day out - perfect weather.

 

[stringcheese]

Came across a little rattle snake on my run today. Just a cute baby thing, two foot long and skinny, but stretched out across the whole path. She wasn’t bothered by me enough to move an inch, even when i got really close. We hung out for a minute, but a dog was coming, so it needed to scoot. No go though, settled where it is. Plucked a stick from the grass and that turned it right into fight snek, coiled and boiled, adorably rattling at me to let me know that it was in fact quite comfortable in that spot.

On the way back, it rattled at me again from off in the bushes near where it had slid away. Bye little snake! Found turkeys too. Fvckin animal planet some days eh?

 

[Kento]

Had been feeling OK on Saturday itself but for some reason, Sunday just was bad. Weird hotspot blister popped up on the inside of my big toe, where I'd never gotten one before. And then holy sh!t talk about a catastrophic case of hemorrhoids. Brutal. Close to kidney stone-level of pain. And out of nowhere.

Took it very easy Sunday - Thursday; ironic, supposed to be a large-mileage week but didn't end up working out that way. Ran 6 miles on Friday, cruisey pace, generally felt OK although developed a weird blood blister on another toe. Drained that sucker but damn, all weird things out of nowhere.

So I decided to take advantage of the sale at REI and picked up some Altra Lone Peak 8s. Hell yeah. Couldn't resist breaking them in. I hadn't been running many trails because of the rains but things were more or less dried out, still a lot of mud. But hit up the local trail, absolutely beautiful sunny day in the 70s, just what the doctor ordered. Calves felt super tight at first but loosened up and I was able to pick up the pace. Nothing like a good trial by fire for those shoes, mud, grass, rocks, you name it, 17.25 miles in under 2.5 hours, with about 2500' elevation gain. Love those shoes already - worked well with the Darn Tough socks.