paddling fatigue

freeride76

Michael Peterson status
Dec 31, 2009
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Lennox Head.
why do you keep making the comparison between surfers (who train for strength) and power lifters/bodybuilders?

it's a meaningless analogy.

He's stronger than if he didn't train, and that training for strength improves surfing. The jury is in on that point unless you have a particular need to make some obtuse point that because they are not as strong as powerlifters it's worthless.

Am I misunderstanding you?
 
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Duffy LaCoronilla

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why do you keep making the comparison between surfers (who train for strength) and power lifters/bodybuilders?

it's a meaningless analogy.

He's stronger than if he didn't train, and that training for strength improves surfing. The jury is in on that point unless you have a particular need to make some obtuse point that because they are not as strong as powerlifters it's worthless.

Am I misunderstanding you?
How do squats help your paddling?
 

surfysurfy1476

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Jan 27, 2018
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why do you keep making the comparison between surfers (who train for strength) and power lifters/bodybuilders?

it's a meaningless analogy.

He's stronger than if he didn't train, and that training for strength improves surfing. The jury is in on that point unless you have a particular need to make some obtuse point that because they are not as strong as powerlifters it's worthless.

Am I misunderstanding you?

1.) he has done his best surfing as someone with no "strength"
2.) he isn't currently "strong"
3.) he isn't on a strength or power program. He appears to be doing some sort of CF.

Just because he's been in a gym doesnt mean he now has strength. My main point here is that Nathan was one of the best surfers in the world before he ever stepped into a gym. Sure it wont hurt him as long as he stays at fighting weight, but overall its not an important factor.
 

freeride76

Michael Peterson status
Dec 31, 2009
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Lennox Head.
that ain't CF.

Point is, he's stronger than someone not training for strength, can we agree on that>?

If he is doing squats for one or five rep maxes with a belt, he's training for strength, regardless of whether he is building mass or is as strong or as bulky as a powerlifter or bodybuilder. Can we agree on that?

His Jaws/Chopes surfing, which has brought him to prominence, were all after he started training. Can we agree on that?

Where the training ranks as a factor is debatable, sure. In his mind, it seems to be important.

I'm still not sure what your ultimate point is. Are you saying the training is worthless? Or he should be doing something different? Should be trying to build more muscle mass? Less?
CF is bad?
 
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hal9000

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Haha, I think this thread stopped being about paddling long ago. It's mutated into "cardio, weights, or neither?"

isn't that pretty much every thread on erBB?


A few other thoughts:

-What do people mean when they say "training for strength"? Are they referring to low rep, heavy weight lifting like lifting at 70-80% of 1RM, are you also referring to lighter weight training like 50-60% of 1RM?

-I think people get too caught up in emulating olympic style "big three" weight training or even football strength training regimens when these don't even really apply to surfing.

-Obviously strength is good but being a gym rat never helped anyone's surfing.

-I wish there was more published research on surf-specific training. Or maybe I should go to PubMed and Google Scholar and find a few papers to read.
 
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Duffy LaCoronilla

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isn't that pretty much every thread on erBB?


A few other thoughts:

-What do people mean when they say "training for strength"? Are they referring to low rep, heavy weight lifting like lifting at 70-80% of 1RM, are you also referring to lighter weight training like 50-60% of 1RM?

-I think people get too caught up in emulating olympic style "big three" weight training or even football strength training regimens when these don't even really apply to surfing.

-Obviously strength is good but being a gym rat never helped anyone's surfing.

-I wish there was more published research on surf-specific training. Or maybe I should go to PubMed and Google Scholar and find a few papers to read.
“Strength training” is such a non-specific term it is virtually meaningless. Doing sprints is strength training and so is walking up a hill.
 

freeride76

Michael Peterson status
Dec 31, 2009
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Lennox Head.
Pull ups don’t do d!ck squat for paddling (or swimming).
not for swimming, no.

best exercise for catching waves though. they power up the major paddling muscles, increase force production and make it easier to get waves.

not get from a to b in the line-up but paddle faster in that 5-10m sprint that actually catches waves, especially at a reef break or in a crowd.
 

Duffy LaCoronilla

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not for swimming, no.

best exercise for catching waves though. they power up the major paddling muscles, increase force production and make it easier to get waves.

not get from a to b in the line-up but paddle faster in that 5-10m sprint that actually catches waves, especially at a reef break or in a crowd.
Nope.

Sprint paddle if you want that. Or swim intervals.

I’ve said it now 3 times here. When I was at my best paddling abilities, wave catching machine, one after another, non-stop, at points with current, for hours....

...I could not do one single pull-up.

Just now busted out 25 pull-ups. Nowhere near the paddling prowess I used to have.
 

Duffy LaCoronilla

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Assisted pull-ups where you have something other than you lifting 90% of your body weight and repping them in the thousands would help.

Or real light weight lat pull downs.

full body weight pull-ups and paddling do not use the same kind of muscle. The resistance on your arms while paddling, even sprint paddling to catch waves is no near the resistance of lifting your body.

Slowtwitch vs. fasttwitch.

Slow for the win for paddling.

Hell, regular slowish paced running is better for paddling than pull-ups.
 

freeride76

Michael Peterson status
Dec 31, 2009
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Lennox Head.
seriously mate, I appreciate your perspective is different to mine.....but this is what high performance trainers up the Goldy are saying, Fanning's coaches etc etc.

people who do this stuff for a living.

I can get 10m faster now than at any time because I keep up a weekly number of chin up reps. That gets me more set waves.



Anecdote.

2010 I was in Tahiti for the comp. Used to watch Bobby Martinez running every arvo past where I was staying, which was about 2 miles from teahupoo itself, so assuming he was running 4-5miles a day.

Rd2 heat 5. Bobby is surfing 3-4ft Chopes against Marco Polo . Should have had him on toast.
Less than 5 to go. Bobby needs a wave. Is waiting for one.

A set comes but Bobby is a little bit too far inside, drops in too late, gets pitched and annihilated.

Why the fcuk was he doing road work>? How could that possibly help him at a reef break where the key skill is a 3-5m sprint paddle to either get in position or take the drop?

Anecdote 2.

Surfing Snapper Rocks last year in warmup to Quik pro. Insane crowd, super tricky backwash drop behind the rock. If you've surfed it you'll know what I'm talking about. Probably the hardest place in the world to get a set wave, other than Pipe.

I did not get one.

But I watched Fanning get every one he wanted. He'd sit a metre or three deeper and out than anyone. When that wave came he wanted he would "break" and spring into a sprint paddle which meant both his intention and execution was clear.
His coach recommended chin ups to increase force production. Fast twitch to get those sets.
watching that in action compared to joe's who jog for 10 miles or swim laps.

it ain't in the same ball park as far as effectiveness goes.


But if swimming or jogging works for you then fine.
I'm saying this is what has been tried and tested at the top level.

and easy for joes who don't get paid to surf to emulate.

But if you want to train for triathlon or marathon running, do something different.

It ain't woo, the methods, at least empirically, are pretty well established now.
 
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bigglesworth

Legend (inyourownmind)
Mar 8, 2017
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Nope.

Sprint paddle if you want that. Or swim intervals.

I’ve said it now 3 times here. When I was at my best paddling abilities, wave catching machine, one after another, non-stop, at points with current, for hours....

...I could not do one single pull-up.

Just now busted out 25 pull-ups. Nowhere near the paddling prowess I used to have.
Not to be the "can't we all just get along" guy* here but...surely every person's body is different? And responds to different kind of training? What works best for one person might not work for someone else.

Weight-lifting with weights seems to work well for Freeride to ameliorate his paddling. Good for him. Cardio works well for you. Good for you.

*millennial speak, cause I am one of that cursed breed
 

freeride76

Michael Peterson status
Dec 31, 2009
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Lennox Head.
not weights, I keep a certain number of chins in there to keep the top end up. If it's flat I'll up the volume.

In surf season, during swells, I'll back it down .

I don't go near gyms. or pools.

but otherwise agree.

Why doesn't Duffy go back to what works for him? I do find it hard to believe he could do that volume of swimming and be too weak to do a single pull-up.
That seems very odd.
 

surfysurfy1476

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Jan 27, 2018
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Nope.

Sprint paddle if you want that. Or swim intervals.

I’ve said it now 3 times here. When I was at my best paddling abilities, wave catching machine, one after another, non-stop, at points with current, for hours....

...I could not do one single pull-up.
I find that really hard to believe. For me, doing pullups did help my paddling. Maybe because I was coming from doing zero training at all other than random cardio.

seriously mate, I appreciate your perspective is different to mine.....but this is what high performance trainers up the Goldy are saying, Fanning's coaches etc etc.

people who do this stuff for a living.
Because trainers do that for a living. So of course if a pro surfer comes to them they are going to come up with a program.

Be completely honest and answer the following: Would Nathan having extra strength or size help in this situation?