The problem with the lighter fuels is the fires runs faster. Plus there are still plenty of heavily wooded areas in the drainages on the south end of the coast. Steep terrain, a lot of areas very difficult to access. Still has potential to grow a lot bigger.Treebones is on the south side of Cape San Martin, so there is still a ways to go.
Also, as the fire moves south into Pacific Valley, the density of trees is dramatically lower along the highway and inland, so the firefighters have a better chance at plowing some fields to make a stand. You can see in the photo below how tree density is drastically reduced in this area vs. north Big Sur.
Also, the lower brush stuff grows back fast. Sadly, the tall Redwoods, Oak, Pine, Walnut, and Cypress trees don't.
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***Official FIRES thread***
- Thread starter JBerry
- Start date
I'm chief of our small volunteer fire dept here in Southern Humboldt--we've got what is now the largest wildfire in California history about 15 miles away. Right now there's a weak front heading our way which should kick up a light S wind and this fire is 28% contained. They've managed to keep this fire out of Humboldt. Pray we don't get any kind of wind like what blew into Paradise, Santa Rosa, etc. The Camp Fire started in freakin' November fer cryin' out loud...lotsa time left, sleepin' with the boots on...
California’s government solely responsible for states forest management and wildfire debacle
Guest essay by Larry Hamlin The inept government, political and regulatory policies of California have clearly driven the present forest management calamitous conditions with that failure leading t…
wattsupwiththat.com
California is burning to the ground.
I would agree with the narrative that the forests have been mismanaged. I've often wondered why logging dead trees didn't start long before it did, and why they've been going relatively slow (need more logging crews). At least it starts getting cold in the Sierras in late Sept/Oct at night. It's already low 40's around the 8000' level.
I would agree with the narrative that the forests have been mismanaged. I've often wondered why logging dead trees didn't start long before it did, and why they've been going relatively slow (need more logging crews). At least it starts getting cold in the Sierras in late Sept/Oct at night. It's already low 40's around the 8000' level.
My friend owns part of a hunting property in Cazadero which is a rainforest. Much of it just got torched. It was going to cost him and the other owners $100k in permits and erosion mitigation to log, so the pines continue to grow. Grazing animals aren't a solution because the mountain lions will decimate a herd quickly. The trees just keep getting more and more dense and the forest more flammable.
I mountain biked with a guy from the US forest service in Mendocino. He said logging was good for the forest and these trees are completely renewable with oversight of which we have plenty.
The science of forest management is well-understood, we just aren't doing it.
Yeah great, a climate change denial site...I'm not here to debate climate change 'cause most humans look through a very short lens at this and we won't be around to really see where it's headed. But the human population (which has tripled since I've been alive), and our activity on this planet have had undeniable effects on everything from water quality to species extinction. Meanwhile here where I live we got less than 50% of our average rainfall norm and our last measurable rainfall (and it was meager at that) was in late May. And to 'rake' the forests is going to take huge amounts of money and I wouldn't mind seeing some of that money come from the military and/or really rich guys like Bezos, et. al. So yeah, the forests may be 'mis-managed' but they're being mis-managed on very little money.California’s government solely responsible for states forest management and wildfire debacle
Guest essay by Larry Hamlin The inept government, political and regulatory policies of California have clearly driven the present forest management calamitous conditions with that failure leading t…
No it isn't. Climate change is undeniable. The causes and effects are debatable.
It may be mismanaged on very little money but the costs of mismanagement - the fires - are enormous. We can sit on our hands and do nothing or do what Cal Fire says: manage the forests, which should be profitable. We need to think of ourselves as gardeners rather than pearl-clutching old white ladies.
I agree with that 100%. I'm on the local prescribed burn association and I think that prescribed burning is a fantastic tool that indigenous cultures used for thousands of years. Plus if you're a pyro, like most firefighters, you get to play with fire...in a more controlled setting. But the red tape to do that is crazy, mostly because of the mindset people get after seeing these large fires. But we're making progress as people see that done right prescribed burning is really the best way to go.
You can thank the federal government as the National Forests in CA that are burning are under Federal control. As in NATIONAL FORESTS.
Thank them for controlling the logging industry( issuing permits or not) and inevitably stopping logging because loggers don’t want to harvest dead trees cause they aren’t worth as much. Thank them (at least the current admin) for denying climate change, drought, and placing state blame. Thank them for the mismanagement you speak of.
Thank them for controlling the logging industry( issuing permits or not) and inevitably stopping logging because loggers don’t want to harvest dead trees cause they aren’t worth as much. Thank them (at least the current admin) for denying climate change, drought, and placing state blame. Thank them for the mismanagement you speak of.
Maybe a dumb question here, but our forests in CA, the management costs are tax payer dollars across the entire nation?
Does the same go for the firefighters who fight them, and the tankers and equipment? How does all that fire equipment get paid for?
Does the same go for the firefighters who fight them, and the tankers and equipment? How does all that fire equipment get paid for?
Couldn't tell you exactly how the forest management portion works. The cost is high though, and it takes a lot of work. It's a bit unfeasible to think you could manage every acre of forest to prevent a catastrophic fire. In certain conditions, it wouldn't even matter.
As far as paying for a fire fight, the bill usually comes down to the state and/or if it's declared a state of emergency, it opens up emergency federal funds. Or if they find a person responsible, the cost is on them.
To the extent that this is true, federal forest mismanagement has been going on for decades. To the extent the feds are to blame, it isn't one administration. The bureaucracies tend to run on inertia. However, the Legislative Analyst's Office of CA prepared another report (linked above) on this problem and found that California already has agreements with federal agencies to manage the forests within its territory:
These overlapping authority structures enable a lot of can-kicking and buck-passing between state and federal agencies, but the bottom line is that these forests are in California and they belong to us. Possession is 9/10s of the law.
California claims to be a leader for the whole nation. Why not here? We can't say we lead when things go right and whine when things go wrong. We can't have it both ways. If the Feds aren't doing the job, at minimum, the state should take over since the fires are happening here to us. It appears we already have the authority to do so, and we can start with the areas near structures. We don't have to thin the entire forest.
It's our job to protect ourselves. Ever heard of the Western States' Pact?
Sorry for the triple post, but this just came into my inbox from a friend who runs a lumber company North of the Bay. He said I could distribute (Part I):
"I’ve been asked by several people about the current fire season, so I'm sending to the usual group of smart, interesting people who must suffer my writings. . Thanks for humoring me if this is not of interest to you.
Every day I count my blessings among them a thirty-year career in CA Forest Product business that has taken me from south of Yosemite to the Oregon border and now on the North Coast, every forest you read about being on fire I’ve been there. I did not grow up in forests or forest products, I come from the Bay Area and would never have imagined the breadth, the scope and most importantly the fantastic people I’ve been fortunate to embrace. I am so lucky to have this work find me!
Today I manage 440,000 acres of FSC certified forest. We will take anyone anywhere to see how forest products and environmental excellence both thrive in a managed forest. We love to share the forest and how it is integral to a healthy CA. So, in that vein I offer the following observations and encourage conversation on the matter. I’m happy to listen to anyone, feel free to share. Thank you.
CA Fires
To me it is was a foregone conclusion. It’s been coming, maybe for a reason different than you know.
The latest news is Trump coming to Sac on Monday for a fire briefing. This on the heels of Governor Newsom pinning on this on Climate Change. There is a chance here for real action, but I wonder, will It be more of the same diversion from what’s really going on the forest? Here’s my educated observations and thoughts:
What’s going in in the forest:
First, it is important to know Fire Science is very well understood. Fires are unrelated to ambient temperature other than temps impact on humidity. 80,90,100 degrees. Doesn’t matter. Fires burn at much higher temps. And no fire started due to a high temp.
Three things matter:
Fuel,
Wind, and
Humidity.
That’s it. An ignition source will spark a fire when those three conditions are aligned for fire. A chain dragging behind a trailer, a rock out of a lawnmower, a match, you get the idea. But never a hot day in and of itself.
We can’t control the wind or humidity. Which leaves fuel. Simply put there is too much fuel in the forest, just like leaving your yard untended for 30 years, it piles up. Yes, it is that simple. I saw this real devastation the first time at the tragic fire in South Lake Tahoe near Camp Richardson, 15 years ago where it was illegal to clear trees or forest debris from around homes. It was a horrific fire.
What is making these fires so large:
The bragging and promoting of “the biggest fire ever” is a significant contributor to the size and scope of these fires:
1)It is fraudulent in a sense - fires are now combined to increase acres. There’s a good reason for this in managing the fire but it leaves the wrong idea. For instance, the fire in Napa at Berryessa included the fire west of Healdsburg even though they were disconnected and distinct. There was also a rational and intentional change made to firefighting to protect firefighters. Now a ridgeline or other position well suited to “hold a line” is selected distant for the body of the fire. Then a back burn and fire line/break is built in the void. This makes for much larger fires. Frankly, I believe CalFire has used this to effectively control burn areas around towns and populated areas. Large wilderness/unpopulated areas are essentially roped off into huge areas and allowed to burn, inflating the acres 2-5x. Who can blame them as we have effectively banned a useful tool of controlled burning? When they get the chance, they take it. No one at CalFire has confirmed this idea, it is mine alone based on educated observation.
2) Social media and promoting of “greatest fire ever” encourage arson. We may wish to believe arsonist don’t exist, but they do, and they love to go for records. It used to be acres and those sorts of things were intentionally downplayed to prevent arson. Now were seeing an uptick in arson. Six arrest inthe past week at last count. Sigh..."
"I’ve been asked by several people about the current fire season, so I'm sending to the usual group of smart, interesting people who must suffer my writings. . Thanks for humoring me if this is not of interest to you.
Every day I count my blessings among them a thirty-year career in CA Forest Product business that has taken me from south of Yosemite to the Oregon border and now on the North Coast, every forest you read about being on fire I’ve been there. I did not grow up in forests or forest products, I come from the Bay Area and would never have imagined the breadth, the scope and most importantly the fantastic people I’ve been fortunate to embrace. I am so lucky to have this work find me!
Today I manage 440,000 acres of FSC certified forest. We will take anyone anywhere to see how forest products and environmental excellence both thrive in a managed forest. We love to share the forest and how it is integral to a healthy CA. So, in that vein I offer the following observations and encourage conversation on the matter. I’m happy to listen to anyone, feel free to share. Thank you.
CA Fires
To me it is was a foregone conclusion. It’s been coming, maybe for a reason different than you know.
The latest news is Trump coming to Sac on Monday for a fire briefing. This on the heels of Governor Newsom pinning on this on Climate Change. There is a chance here for real action, but I wonder, will It be more of the same diversion from what’s really going on the forest? Here’s my educated observations and thoughts:
What’s going in in the forest:
First, it is important to know Fire Science is very well understood. Fires are unrelated to ambient temperature other than temps impact on humidity. 80,90,100 degrees. Doesn’t matter. Fires burn at much higher temps. And no fire started due to a high temp.
Three things matter:
Fuel,
Wind, and
Humidity.
That’s it. An ignition source will spark a fire when those three conditions are aligned for fire. A chain dragging behind a trailer, a rock out of a lawnmower, a match, you get the idea. But never a hot day in and of itself.
We can’t control the wind or humidity. Which leaves fuel. Simply put there is too much fuel in the forest, just like leaving your yard untended for 30 years, it piles up. Yes, it is that simple. I saw this real devastation the first time at the tragic fire in South Lake Tahoe near Camp Richardson, 15 years ago where it was illegal to clear trees or forest debris from around homes. It was a horrific fire.
What is making these fires so large:
The bragging and promoting of “the biggest fire ever” is a significant contributor to the size and scope of these fires:
1)It is fraudulent in a sense - fires are now combined to increase acres. There’s a good reason for this in managing the fire but it leaves the wrong idea. For instance, the fire in Napa at Berryessa included the fire west of Healdsburg even though they were disconnected and distinct. There was also a rational and intentional change made to firefighting to protect firefighters. Now a ridgeline or other position well suited to “hold a line” is selected distant for the body of the fire. Then a back burn and fire line/break is built in the void. This makes for much larger fires. Frankly, I believe CalFire has used this to effectively control burn areas around towns and populated areas. Large wilderness/unpopulated areas are essentially roped off into huge areas and allowed to burn, inflating the acres 2-5x. Who can blame them as we have effectively banned a useful tool of controlled burning? When they get the chance, they take it. No one at CalFire has confirmed this idea, it is mine alone based on educated observation.
2) Social media and promoting of “greatest fire ever” encourage arson. We may wish to believe arsonist don’t exist, but they do, and they love to go for records. It used to be acres and those sorts of things were intentionally downplayed to prevent arson. Now were seeing an uptick in arson. Six arrest inthe past week at last count. Sigh..."
Part II
"
How can we fix it:
Sorry. I’m sad about it and what’s happened to our forests. We knew it would happen, we laid it out and pleaded to avoid it, and yet it has. I’ve spent thirty years working with the best, most regulated foresters in the world. In CA forests we have seven state and federal regulators, and many landowners go a step further to seek third party certification. Logging and forest management are effective and environmentally sound practices performed by professionals and supervised by regulators under risk of litigation.
We’ve been sounding the alarm for decades. Fully preventable and environmentally sound - certainly, one would think most people would believe better than the current conditions. And just wait for the runoff and other damage in addition to loss of life, forests, and property.
There is a simple plan - legislation and administrative action to get this going. It has been put forward annually for so many years I’ve lost count. And the meetings, my lord, how many meetings have we had? Mostly it has to do with Permits being issued within the timeframes required, allowing road construction to access these remote forests, and some liability relief. Ther is a nuance in CA law which really needs to be fixed and few citizens are even aware of a change that was made to CalFire role in regulating Forests. (fun fact: CalFire is officially the Cailfornia Department of Forestry and Fire, changed to Cal Fire in cute rebranding phase we went through with all agencies.) CalFire was the lead agency for forestry. They had held that roll until a change in the law put other agencies on equal footing. The timing of that change remarkably coincidences with increase in fires. CalFire needs to be reinstated as Lead of Forestry. The rigor of CA regulations remains the same, most stringent in the world.
Why haven’t started (this is the long part):
Some voices will say we’ve started, but the acres treated are commingled and opaque. On the ground, nothing has change. It takes time, money and people to fix this, but not a lot relative to the many other things that have been put forward. A couple hundred million dollars would do it. One year’s worth of “carbon” dollars or fuel taxes or solar subsidies, devoted to clearing acres, building fire breaks, controlled burns (at favorable times of the year) and thinning forests. That’s it. One year’s worth of “green” subsidies to fix this.
Who’s stalling? Thom Porter (head of CalFire) is a Forester and knows better. CalFire is great and knows what needs to be done. Most people understand. It’s pretty sad and simple to understand. However, the bureaucracy exists to perpetuate the motion they are headed. Natural Resource Agency and Air Resources Board, and litigants stand against any and every forest resilience measure. They are focused on other matters and see Forest Management as a symptom not a cure for their initiative. It sums up like this, “When we fix climate change the forest will stop burning, so we cannot divert any dollars to the forest while we fix climate change.” I disagree, but there is not space for all that, other than to say regardless of how one thinks about climate change, healthy forest management (which we can have in CA) is a net carbon sink, creates clean water and fresh air. And it is the cheapest way to get there.
Suffice to say, forest health measures passed by the legislature in pursuit for forest resilience are carved down to modest changes and then burdened with 2-3 year renewals; for a problem that needs a decade of intense work followed by annual maintenance forever. Essentially, we are just holding on with the current rules and spend most time working to avoid further restrictions. We’ve had legislative leaders to the forest annually for decades, each and every one pledges to fix it. For any number of reasons, nothing happens and once they return to the capitol building other matters take their attention, despite our constant and regular trips to see them. We (CA) are treading water, neither moving forward or back.
There is another idea which I refer to as the “let nature take its course and burn it all.” A plan which is clearly happening either intentionally or by lack of action. People laughed at me when I pointed out the risk of the traction this concept gained upon Newsom’s inauguration, but it is a real position of some people that had been discussed in litigations and other arenas for a decade or more and has an audience in the current Administration.
The idea is to let the forest burn then decay and restart as meadows evolving back to forest over the centuries with no human involvement. It is a plan, unclear if it is a good plan. Regardless, at this rate it is probably close to complete with the range given these fires to burn. (See policy change mentioned above expanding size of fire control). So, expect the next bit of news to be changes to salvage logging and hazard tree logging which are tools foresters use to reset a burned forest. I expect there will be a push to further restrict the tools available and “let nature take its course”
The Mendocino National Forest (MNF) is a great example. From Clear Lake north to Humboldt County spanning from the edge of the redwoods to the central valley, a massive and mixed forest of mountains, meadows and waterways. Beautiful. At least it was. The pine trees were spectacular. And when it burns the USFS faces 2-3 years of litigation, so they gave up. Who can blame them? By then the trees are rotten and of no value except in the “let nature take its course” plan where over decades they fall and decay.
When a fire sparks in MNF now they just let it burn. This is now the “largest fire” ever. But it didn’t have to be, it just didn’t matter anymore. No one lived there and we are “letting nature takes its course.” A million acres of once majestic, well managed forest - gone in a generation. Family camping and hiking. Friendships built. Healthy commune with nature. Clean water, wildlife, and on it goes. Expect to see policy changes here as well. Closing the forest for “safety” due to falling dead trees while “nature takes its course.” Gone for generations those trips to the woods.
Breaks my heart to see mile after mile of beautiful trees destroyed, for a century or more. And we saw it coming. I wish it was only on the Mendocino, this is the “plan” across the state.
I am not a Registered Professional Forester, just a guy who loves the forest and happy to talk with anyone about this matter. We will only “fix” it if we work together AND take real action on the ground."
---end----
I am an avid sportsman and outdoorsman and have been in many of these places and agree. We shouldn't put up with this "plan."
"
How can we fix it:
Sorry. I’m sad about it and what’s happened to our forests. We knew it would happen, we laid it out and pleaded to avoid it, and yet it has. I’ve spent thirty years working with the best, most regulated foresters in the world. In CA forests we have seven state and federal regulators, and many landowners go a step further to seek third party certification. Logging and forest management are effective and environmentally sound practices performed by professionals and supervised by regulators under risk of litigation.
We’ve been sounding the alarm for decades. Fully preventable and environmentally sound - certainly, one would think most people would believe better than the current conditions. And just wait for the runoff and other damage in addition to loss of life, forests, and property.
There is a simple plan - legislation and administrative action to get this going. It has been put forward annually for so many years I’ve lost count. And the meetings, my lord, how many meetings have we had? Mostly it has to do with Permits being issued within the timeframes required, allowing road construction to access these remote forests, and some liability relief. Ther is a nuance in CA law which really needs to be fixed and few citizens are even aware of a change that was made to CalFire role in regulating Forests. (fun fact: CalFire is officially the Cailfornia Department of Forestry and Fire, changed to Cal Fire in cute rebranding phase we went through with all agencies.) CalFire was the lead agency for forestry. They had held that roll until a change in the law put other agencies on equal footing. The timing of that change remarkably coincidences with increase in fires. CalFire needs to be reinstated as Lead of Forestry. The rigor of CA regulations remains the same, most stringent in the world.
Why haven’t started (this is the long part):
Some voices will say we’ve started, but the acres treated are commingled and opaque. On the ground, nothing has change. It takes time, money and people to fix this, but not a lot relative to the many other things that have been put forward. A couple hundred million dollars would do it. One year’s worth of “carbon” dollars or fuel taxes or solar subsidies, devoted to clearing acres, building fire breaks, controlled burns (at favorable times of the year) and thinning forests. That’s it. One year’s worth of “green” subsidies to fix this.
Who’s stalling? Thom Porter (head of CalFire) is a Forester and knows better. CalFire is great and knows what needs to be done. Most people understand. It’s pretty sad and simple to understand. However, the bureaucracy exists to perpetuate the motion they are headed. Natural Resource Agency and Air Resources Board, and litigants stand against any and every forest resilience measure. They are focused on other matters and see Forest Management as a symptom not a cure for their initiative. It sums up like this, “When we fix climate change the forest will stop burning, so we cannot divert any dollars to the forest while we fix climate change.” I disagree, but there is not space for all that, other than to say regardless of how one thinks about climate change, healthy forest management (which we can have in CA) is a net carbon sink, creates clean water and fresh air. And it is the cheapest way to get there.
Suffice to say, forest health measures passed by the legislature in pursuit for forest resilience are carved down to modest changes and then burdened with 2-3 year renewals; for a problem that needs a decade of intense work followed by annual maintenance forever. Essentially, we are just holding on with the current rules and spend most time working to avoid further restrictions. We’ve had legislative leaders to the forest annually for decades, each and every one pledges to fix it. For any number of reasons, nothing happens and once they return to the capitol building other matters take their attention, despite our constant and regular trips to see them. We (CA) are treading water, neither moving forward or back.
There is another idea which I refer to as the “let nature take its course and burn it all.” A plan which is clearly happening either intentionally or by lack of action. People laughed at me when I pointed out the risk of the traction this concept gained upon Newsom’s inauguration, but it is a real position of some people that had been discussed in litigations and other arenas for a decade or more and has an audience in the current Administration.
The idea is to let the forest burn then decay and restart as meadows evolving back to forest over the centuries with no human involvement. It is a plan, unclear if it is a good plan. Regardless, at this rate it is probably close to complete with the range given these fires to burn. (See policy change mentioned above expanding size of fire control). So, expect the next bit of news to be changes to salvage logging and hazard tree logging which are tools foresters use to reset a burned forest. I expect there will be a push to further restrict the tools available and “let nature take its course”
The Mendocino National Forest (MNF) is a great example. From Clear Lake north to Humboldt County spanning from the edge of the redwoods to the central valley, a massive and mixed forest of mountains, meadows and waterways. Beautiful. At least it was. The pine trees were spectacular. And when it burns the USFS faces 2-3 years of litigation, so they gave up. Who can blame them? By then the trees are rotten and of no value except in the “let nature take its course” plan where over decades they fall and decay.
When a fire sparks in MNF now they just let it burn. This is now the “largest fire” ever. But it didn’t have to be, it just didn’t matter anymore. No one lived there and we are “letting nature takes its course.” A million acres of once majestic, well managed forest - gone in a generation. Family camping and hiking. Friendships built. Healthy commune with nature. Clean water, wildlife, and on it goes. Expect to see policy changes here as well. Closing the forest for “safety” due to falling dead trees while “nature takes its course.” Gone for generations those trips to the woods.
Breaks my heart to see mile after mile of beautiful trees destroyed, for a century or more. And we saw it coming. I wish it was only on the Mendocino, this is the “plan” across the state.
I am not a Registered Professional Forester, just a guy who loves the forest and happy to talk with anyone about this matter. We will only “fix” it if we work together AND take real action on the ground."
---end----
I am an avid sportsman and outdoorsman and have been in many of these places and agree. We shouldn't put up with this "plan."
I don't know enough to comment on the above, but it seems reasonable.
It would be interesting to consider the benefits for large, profitable, special interest groups in those scenarios.
It would be interesting to consider the benefits for large, profitable, special interest groups in those scenarios.
Creek Fire / area updates
- New spot fire on Tioga Road in Yosemite. Road is closed. 20% contained
- Spot fire near Bullfrog Lake between Dinkey Creek and Courtright is growing. It is heading east into Courtright area. More air attacks coming.
- Creek fire approaching southern boundary of Yosemite National Park.
- Creek fire still raging above Mammoth Pool and heading east of the lake into the high country, directly towards Edison Lake and Mono Hot Springs.
- Creek fire has reached the edge of Jackass Meadows above Bass Lake. One of the most gorgeous meadows you will ever lay eyes upon.
This pic from north side of the meadow, on the trail to Jackass Lakes, looking straight south where the fire is coming from.
- New spot fire on Tioga Road in Yosemite. Road is closed. 20% contained
- Spot fire near Bullfrog Lake between Dinkey Creek and Courtright is growing. It is heading east into Courtright area. More air attacks coming.
- Creek fire approaching southern boundary of Yosemite National Park.
- Creek fire still raging above Mammoth Pool and heading east of the lake into the high country, directly towards Edison Lake and Mono Hot Springs.
- Creek fire has reached the edge of Jackass Meadows above Bass Lake. One of the most gorgeous meadows you will ever lay eyes upon.
This pic from north side of the meadow, on the trail to Jackass Lakes, looking straight south where the fire is coming from.
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