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Are the Democrats about to cook up a fake war

PRCD

PRCD

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grapedrink said:
Who cares if it's true for Ukraine or not? They at least have enough sense to not invade other countries. Can't blame them for wanting to defend themselves.
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There's not a lot of proof that they do[1]. Some Western Ukrainians want to. The furthest Western part was once Poland. Many Ukrainians are being conscripted and many fled. The Russian-speaking side wants to join Russia or is at least indifferent.
Several conservative posters here seemed to think that Russia would roll them right over. I don't think Putin was expecting such resistance, along with how much help Ukraine would get from NATO. Authoritarians and dictators tend to overestimate their own capabilities because everyone below them feeding them information are either too scared to tell the truth about how ill-prepared they are and/or are pilfering resources for their own agenda.
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True but there is no question the US and NATO wanted a proxy war. We were told for decades the Ukraine was Russia's line in the sand, thus we knew joining them to NATO or threatening it with joint exercises would lead to this. We wanted it. Whether Russia should/shouldn't fight over this is irrelevant. They were WILLING TO and we knew it. As I said:

The morality of getting two peoples to kill each-other is dubious in the extreme, whether or not you've judged them to be an enemy since peace is obviously better than war. There are also the risks of wider war - Poland sending more troops, Belarus sending more, the latest Israeli strikes on Iranian factories used to make drones for Russia, and the fact that Russia has nukes and the escalation from tactical nukes to strategic nukes is much shorter than the escalation from conventional weapons to tactical nukes. The latter should give people extreme pause in wanting a proxy war with Russia but Westerners are a suicidal, nihilistic people.

All of this was preventable by making Ukraine a neutral country. Those who say Russia was going to re-constitute the Russian empire or USSR have to explain how this was possible when they can't even get across the Ukraine. The counter-point is usually, "Yeah, because we're helping them!" Well, we could've honored the terms of previous agreements to prevent the invasion in the first place and still helped if they invaded. We didn't because we wanted a proxy war in the first place. We did a similar thing to Iraq and Iran.

Why are we so bloody-minded? What goes around comes around.
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[1]Did "We" in the USA want to fight Iraq II or drag out Afghanistan for 20 years or did our leaders/MIC want to and some small percentage of our population willing to fight it?
 
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hammies

hammies

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PRCD said:
True but there is no question the US and NATO wanted a proxy war. We were told for decades the Ukraine was Russia's line in the sand, thus we knew joining them to NATO or threatening it with joint exercises would lead to this. We wanted it. Whether Russia should/shouldn't fight over this is irrelevant. They were WILLING TO and we knew it. As I said:
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Russia invaded Ukraine because it was first stop on Putin's "Rebuild the USSR" wagon train. His worldview is that of a New Soviet Man and he hated that it was a West-leaning, relatively free and prosperous independent country that used to be an SSR. Ukraine was not going to join NATO, that's just one of Vlad's strawmen.

I suspect he figured NATO was in such disarray after 4 years of Trump's chaos that he would roll on Ukraine and head up to the Baltics as the train's next stop with token whining from NATO. Little did he realize that the Ukrainians fight like wolverines and NATO came together quickly and is happy to give them weapons, since they see the obvious threat a rebuilt USSR would be.
 
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grapedrink

grapedrink

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A Beach
PRCD said:
There's not a lot of proof that they do[1]. Some Western Ukrainians want to. The furthest Western part was once Poland. Many Ukrainians are being conscripted and many fled. The Russian-speaking side wants to join Russia or is at least indifferent.
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Ok. Those that want to fight are welcome to, same is true for the reverse.

True but there is no question the US and NATO wanted a proxy war.
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I don't disagree. It's an opportunity to force Russia to use up their soldiers and weapons.

Did "We" in the USA want to fight Iraq II or drag out Afghanistan for 20 years or did our leaders/MIC want to and some small percentage of our population willing to fight it?
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Most people who voted Republican at the time sure did, including some spineless Dems as well.
 
PRCD

PRCD

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grapedrink said:
Ok. Those that want to fight are welcome to, same is true for the reverse.
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They're conscripting. How would you feel in that situation?
I don't disagree. It's an opportunity to force Russia to use up their soldiers and weapons.
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An opportunity for whom? There seems to be an unstated assumption that we are directing the Ukraine behind the scenes to fight Russia using Ukrainian men whom their government is conscripting. Again, how is this moral?
 
grapedrink

grapedrink

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PRCD said:
They're conscripting. How would you feel in that situation?
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I certainly wouldn’t want to drafted. not sure what your point is? At least they are doing so for the protection of what’s inside their own borders instead of sending them elsewhere.

An opportunity for whom? There seems to be an unstated assumption that we are directing the Ukraine behind the scenes to fight Russia using Ukrainian men whom their government is conscripting. Again, how is this moral?
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It isn’t. It’s a geopolitical play designed to weaken Russia and Putin. It is what it is.
 
PRCD

PRCD

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grapedrink said:
I certainly wouldn’t want to drafted. not sure what your point is? At least they are doing so for the protection of what’s inside their own borders instead of sending them elsewhere.
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But earlier you you hinted that "we" were fighting a proxy war to weaken Russia, so "they" are doing it on behalf of "we." Were they acting completely on their own, they could've agreed to neutrality and avoided war altogether. If Putin still invaded, "we" could do the same thing we're doing now.

It isn’t. It’s a geopolitical play designed to weaken Russia and Putin. It is what it is.
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What for? What about the potential consequences such as a wider war or nukes? What about all the economic fallout?
 
grapedrink

grapedrink

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PRCD said:
But earlier you you hinted that "we" were fighting a proxy war to weaken Russia, so "they" are doing it on behalf of "we." Were they acting completely on their own, they could've agreed to neutrality and avoided war altogether. If Putin still invaded, "we" could do the same thing we're doing now.
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Are you just desperate for someone to argue with about this? I’m just calling it how I see it, you are welcome to disagree. I don’t have a horse in this race. I never posted anything before the war started as to whether I agreed with how this was being managed, so your “they/we shoulda” argument doesn’t pertain to me.

When I say “We” I am speaking of the US government in the abstract as it relates to defense policy, which seems to be disconnected from what the populace actually want. This has been true for decades, and we will always have a bloated defense budget and MIC whether we like it or not (I don’t). Except for republicans, who for the most part supported Iraq and own the quagmire that it became.

What for? What about the potential consequences such as a wider war or nukes? What about all the economic fallout?
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A weaker Putin is less likely to (attempt
) push his influence beyond his borders.
 
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Ifallalot

Ifallalot

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PRCD

PRCD

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Ifallalot said:
Don’t worry, forced and necessary Austerity measures from the globalists will ensure that China and Russia will move forward of the west.
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I think this is just another of their fvck-ups like Vietnam, Iraq II, Afghanistan, Syria, etc. They thought they were going to cause Putin to lose face, the Russians turn against him, and Russia break-up. So far, I don't see any proof that's happening. Our government hasn't given us KIA estimates for the AFU. Open sources claim Russia is firing about 10x as many shells at the Ukrainians as the Ukrainians are at them. Meanwhile, the Ukraine is being destroyed and its people fleeing. Wicked.
 
PRCD

PRCD

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After writing position papers urging the USA to get into it with Russia in the Ukraine, RAND has reversed itself and become a pro-Russia shill:
niccolo.substack.com

Saturday Commentary and Review #111

Germany the American Satrapy, RAND Urges US Pull Plug on Ukraine War, Serbia Snookered by the West, Remote Work as City Killer, Haitian Voudou in the Diaspora
niccolo.substack.com niccolo.substack.com

Looks like Zelensky's going to join every other former CIA asset:
1675641710427.png
 
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afoaf

afoaf

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PRCD said:
The government lied about those wars but this time it’s telling the truth like it did about Covid.
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seeing as how the government does not seem to be trying to convince Americans that we need to intervene in any capacity greater than using Ukraine as a recycling bin for weapons systems that are aging/aged out, I'm not sure exactly what you think we're being lied to about re: Ukraine or to what end those lies are being told....
 
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M

mundus

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PRCD said:
After writing position papers urging the USA to get into it with Russia in the Ukraine, it has reversed itself and become a pro-Russia shill:
niccolo.substack.com

Saturday Commentary and Review #111

Germany the American Satrapy, RAND Urges US Pull Plug on Ukraine War, Serbia Snookered by the West, Remote Work as City Killer, Haitian Voudou in the Diaspora
niccolo.substack.com niccolo.substack.com

Looks like Zelensky's going to join every other former CIA asset:
View attachment 147632
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Lay off the meth,scumbag.
 
afoaf

afoaf

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see also: Ukraine Infrastructure Week and Ukrainian Health Care Replacement Plan

what a fkn dipshit

this is the type of sh!t my 10 year old tries to pull....
 
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