Aging Shredders + Lack of weight-training

[Sharky]

There are still a lot of boxers that believe that lifting weights is counterproductive. Long story short, my grandfather was a piece of work. And he was a fighter. I wouldn't say he taught me how to box, it was more like he taught me how to win a street fight. (I was getting bullied by kids 3-4 years older than I was. That ended) Not that into lifting. He didit, but it was done in a very specific way. As a young surfer I was lifting when NO surfers lifted. It just wasn't done.

My father rode his last wave in the later half of his seventies. He couldn't handle the crowds. He skied. Black diamond runs. Into his late 80's. Ski most of the day. I'd want to quit. Find a hot tub, some anti inflammatory/pain killer drugs, a beer and a nap. He wanted to keep going. A stroke finally slowed him down. And he was never that into the gym. Surf, walk, ski, hike, no weights, no trainers. Hopefully I got some of that. So far so good. I just need to pull myself together. Dad was relentlessly positive. Friends jokingly call me "glass half empty guy." Working to change that.

 

[One-Off]

If you say so, champ.

Anyway, I asked why you believe what you believe and now I know… well enough. In all honesty the basis of your belief is weaker than I anticipated.

I don't understand why you are not accepting the science grapedrink linked to. And there is LOTS MORE. Believe me , I've been semi obsessed about this stuff for the last three years since my back "injury." You're probably like me- you don't find lifting the barbell or doing resistance work enjoyable. It's like work. But the science is there. I, formally dedicated marathon runner, have to admit- if you had to choose only one- strength or cardio- I would have to choose strength, because it works cardio too. The opposite is not really true.

As far as the lectin in the diet I googled it - and this was the first thing that came up-

Mayo Clinic Q and A: What are dietary lectins and should you avoid eating them? - Mayo Clinic News Network

DEAR MAYO CLINIC: I keep reading about weight loss and other health benefits from a diet where people eliminate lectins. Is there any truth to the claim that a lectin-free diet can cure autoimmune diseases and other health problems? ANSWER: No scientific evidence exists to show that eliminating...

newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org

.

DEAR MAYO CLINIC: I keep reading about weight loss and other health benefits from a diet where people eliminate lectins. Is there any truth to the claim that a lectin-free diet can cure autoimmune diseases and other health problems?

ANSWER: No scientific evidence exists to show that eliminating dietary lectins will cure any medical disorders or conditions, including autoimmune diseases.


Grapedrink asked, and I'll ask- do you have a link to a scientific study documenting the benefits you anecdotally perceive? Or could it be the placebo effect? Nothing wrong with placebos. I wish Icould find a placebo for my shoulder /neck and back?

 

[estreet]

I don't understand why you are not accepting the science grapedrink linked to.

What have I not accepted?

No one needs to read an article to figure out that more mussel tissue in the body requires additional resources and affects metabolism. But again, if you're intentionally building muscle mass to burn excess calories then you have to ask why there are excess calories in the first place, and the answer to that is rarely good for long-term health.

You're probably like me -- you don't find lifting the barbell or doing resistance work enjoyable.

You don't seem to have read much of what I've written in this topic, which is fine of course. Somewhere along the line I remember explicitly stating that I've been doing strength training regularly for my entire adult life, as well as cardio. That's a little over 40 years.

As far as the lectin in the diet I googled it - and this was the first thing that came up-

Mayo say, "Lectins serve a protective function for plants as they grow."​

There doesn't seem to be any controversy about the fundamental issue. As I understand it, the paradox is that plants can both nourish and poison us simultaneously. There are different kinds of lectins, for instance you probably heard of gluten. Due to exposure, we're better adapted to some kinds of lectins than others.

could it be the placebo effect?

I happen to be a firm believer in the power of suggestion and in fact occasionally use hypnosis for relaxation. Suggestion tends to be short-lived, however.

 

[grapedrink]

My problem with that analogy is that I love cardio (surfing, running at the beach, hiking). Instead strength training is like digging holes.

That's fine. At the end of the day, the best exercise for you is the one you can do consistently.

 

[grapedrink]

But again, if you're intentionally building muscle mass to burn excess calories then you have to ask why there are excess calories in the first place, and the answer to that is rarely good for long-term health.

You are mischaracterizing. That is only one of the benefits I mentioned, albeit an important one, and we seemed to go down a rabbit hole about it because you insisted on discussing it further. Glucose management, long term joint health, cognitive health, and the way that muscle stores anti-cancer and anti-aging compounds are also driving forces that keep me consistent.

Somewhere along the line I remember explicitly stating that I've been doing strength training regularly for my entire adult life, as well as cardio. That's a little over 40 years.

Except you've made several very amateurish remarks about strength training that aren't true. Such as saying that you need to spend tons of time training body parts individually to maintain, or that you have to maintain the protocol that you used to build in order to maintain, both which are100% false. Which means that you aren't coming at this discussion from much of a knowledge or experience base, or any experience you do have has been with the wrong approach.

 

[estreet]

grapedrink wrote:
“Glucose management, long term joint health, cognitive health, and the way that muscle stores anti-cancer and anti-aging compounds are also driving forces that keep me consistent.”

Your claim that I took exception to did not mention joint health, and by your own admission you’ve failed so far to provide a comparative study about cognition. I don’t know if you’ve provided a comparative study about anti-cancer and anti-aging compounds, which are obviously related to longevity.

grapedrink wrote:
“Except you've made several very amateurish remarks about strength training that aren't true. Such as saying that you need to spend tons of time training body parts individually to maintain, or that you have to maintain the protocol that you used to build in order to maintain, both which are100% false.”

I wrote: “Working through every mussel group takes time and must be done regularly in order to maintain.”

Somehow in your trolling bent mind you twisted that to mean “tons of time”, that parts must be trained “individually to maintain“, and that “you have to maintain the protocol that you used to build in order to maintain.”

I’ve thought you’ve been clowning but now I’m beginning to think you’re simply batshit crazy.

 

[grapedrink]

Your claim that I took exception to did not mention joint health, and by your own admission you’ve failed so far to provide a comparative study about cognition

Holy fook dude, you are either lying or you can’t read. I said I never posted a study for longevity, not cognition. This was the first link I posted, which cites a university study from Australia specifically about cognition:

Strength training can help protect the brain from degeneration

For the first time, an intervention - lifting weights - has been able to slow and even halt degeneration, over a long period, in brain areas particularly vulnerable to Alzheimer's disease.

www.sydney.edu.au

As far as studies for claims I’ve made that I haven’t posted a link to, I could easily find them, but I’m not going to bother with your homework assignments if you can’t post a single source that backs up your original claim that cardio was better for those benefits. And I’m not the only asking for it

I don’t know if you’ve provided a comparative study about anti-cancer and anti-aging compounds, which are obviously related to longevity.1”

See my comment above. Yawn.

Somehow in your trolling bent mind you twisted that to mean “tons of time”, that parts must be trained “individually to maintain“, and that “you have to maintain the protocol that you used to build in order to maintain.”

If you honestly meant time but not lots of time, fine, but you are wrong in that they require working individually. However you also questioned my comment about 1 hour/week being sufficient for good results, which it absolutely is with good programming, so my assumption is not a stretch.

Note: use of bold all over not intentional, somewhere the code got goofed

 

[PRCD]

There are still a lot of boxers that believe that lifting weights is counterproductive. Long story short, my grandfather was a piece of work. And he was a fighter. I wouldn't say he taught me how to box, it was more like he taught me how to win a street fight. (I was getting bullied by kids 3-4 years older than I was. That ended) Not that into lifting. He didit, but it was done in a very specific way. As a young surfer I was lifting when NO surfers lifted. It just wasn't done.

Boxing is heavily skill-based. I have Jack Dempsey's book, "Championship Fighting" which he wrote because boxing had devolved into a point-scoring sport where boxers lacked power. He has an illustration showing a baby being dropped onto a man's head from a two-story building. His point was that even if it weighs only 10 pounds, a baby can do a lot of damage with its bodyweight. Teaching kids how to put their weight behind punches into the solar plexus, liver, kidneys, and jaw is much more effective than having them train weights. I also agree that you're wasting time telling a boxer to put on muscle until he's learned these basic principles well.

 

[estreet]

Holy fook dude, you are either lying or you can’t read. I said I never posted a study for longevity, not cognition. This was the first link I posted, which cites a university study from Australia specifically about cognition:

This one outlines the benefits of strength training however there is not a comparison with cardio. https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2020/02/11/strength-training-can-help-protect-the-brain-from-degeneration.html#:~:text=The long-term study found,role in learning and memory

You wrote: "there is not a comparison with cardio"

If you honestly meant time but not lots of time, fine

you are wrong in that they require working individually

I didn't say they did.

you also questioned my comment about 1 hour/week being sufficient for good results "the pounds flying off"

You cray cray, bro.

 

[slipped_disc]

I’ve had two major injuries that forced me to get creative (and analytical) with retraining the pop up. Here are some of the less-obvious things that helped me:

The ability to bring your knee to your chest (unassisted without your hands), the easier your takeoff will be. Training your hip flexors with an emphasis on mobility using banded resistance can help with that. Similarly, the more you can flex your foot up towards your knee, the easier your take off. Training your shin muscles with an emphasis on mobility using bands helps. Together, these can make for a tidy, compact pop up.

Looking at the upper body, the more height between your torso and your board, the better. So having excellent scapular mobility and control also helps.

Of course, the more you can bend your spine the better… but for many, myself included, training the spine to flex is wrought with injuries and setbacks. I prefer to focus on the stuff above.

Doing this stuff above along with practicing pop ups at home can really clean up your takeoff. Hope this helps.

 

[Mr J]

Before going low lectin about 6 months ago I’d often get achy and sore after a surf and would need recovery days, though I’d usually take ibuprofen and keep going if there was a good swell. My pop-up was starting to fade and I even bought a performancey mid-length. More generally, in the last few years I started to get arthritis in my fingers and I’ve had a mild case of eczema for many years. All that went away after a couple of weeks on a low lectin diet. So yeah, I’m very motivated, but the diet is actually quite simple, you just stop eating certain things. There are plenty of substitutes. And the occasional indulgence doesn’t have much impact.

Still glad I got the mid-length though, it’s fun in its own way and is kind of like resistance training for shortboards.

Getting rid arthritis onset and eczema would be a strong reason for you to stop eating lectins, even more so if you have healthy alternatives. If it has freed you from getting achy and sore after a surf and eliminated recovery days then compelling.

I do have the discipline to maintain a diet regimen, I have a GI disorder (which I won't go into in detail, but is not allergy related), it requires me to eat on a fairly rigid schedule - digest one meal properly before starting on the next and not overindulge or skimp on nutrition on any of them. Its inconvenient at times, but I would rather feel well and I tell myself this is a healthy way to live anyway.

I do need rest days which is similar to how you used to be, but there is a difference. I'm quite content with my activity levels now that I have moved to the coast. My recreation schedule is based on 2 days of fun and one of rest. The last few days is typical - day before yesterday, surfed in the morning, skatepark in the evening, one hour each session, with a bit of a mid arvo mess around on my skateboard. Yesterday, surf morning 1hr, mid arvo 1/2 hr in skatepark. evening another 1/2 hr skatepark due to intermittent rain conditions. Today rest. I'm actually happy with that, I do have a full time job to maintain as well. When I lived in the city it used to torment me having to wait until the weekend to surf, so one day of rest is fine in comparison.

I don't feel the need to resort to ibuprufen to try and pack more in! I'm not some twenty something anymore, I think my body just needs the rest. I'll adjust that schedule depending on surf, forecast, whether it is dry or not and if I get soreness that is cured by a days rest then that's ok, I try and avoid overdoing it to the point where I need two days rest. My muscle soreness is consistent with the type of activity I am doing, not weird aches in unrelated places. I probably got a different body type to you too, very slightly built (inherited my mothers tiny east asian frame), so I am slow twitch fibre which is getting pushed hard

 

[Sharky]

I’ve had two major injuries that forced me to get creative (and analytical) with retraining the pop up. Here are some of the less-obvious things that helped me:

The ability to bring your knee to your chest (unassisted without your hands), the easier your takeoff will be. Training your hip flexors with an emphasis on mobility using banded resistance can help with that. Similarly, the more you can flex your foot up towards your knee, the easier your take off. Training your shin muscles with an emphasis on mobility using bands helps. Together, these can make for a tidy, compact pop up.

Looking at the upper body, the more height between your torso and your board, the better. So having excellent scapular mobility and control also helps.

Of course, the more you can bend your spine the better… but for many, myself included, training the spine to flex is wrought with injuries and setbacks. I prefer to focus on the stuff above.

Doing this stuff above along with practicing pop ups at home can really clean up your takeoff. Hope this helps.

Interesting. One of the things I came up with on my own is hanging from a pull-up bar, putting one foot through the handle on a kettlebell and pulling the knee to my chest. It helps with chambering a kick as well. And for me it reduces/eliminates hip pain too. Stronger hip flexors seem to be something worth pursuing.

 

[estreet]

Getting rid arthritis onset and eczema would be a strong reason for you to stop eating lectins, even more so if you have healthy alternatives. If it has freed you from getting achy and sore after a surf and eliminated recovery days then compelling.

I do have the discipline to maintain a diet regimen, I have a GI disorder (which I won't go into in detail, but is not allergy related), it requires me to eat on a fairly rigid schedule - digest one meal properly before starting on the next and not overindulge or skimp on nutrition on any of them. Its inconvenient at times, but I would rather feel well and I tell myself this is a healthy way to live anyway.

I do need rest days which is similar to how you used to be, but there is a difference. I'm quite content with my activity levels now that I have moved to the coast. My recreation schedule is based on 2 days of fun and one of rest. The last few days is typical - day before yesterday, surfed in the morning, skatepark in the evening, one hour each session, with a bit of a mid arvo mess around on my skateboard. Yesterday, surf morning 1hr, mid arvo 1/2 hr in skatepark. evening another 1/2 hr skatepark due to intermittent rain conditions. Today rest. I'm actually happy with that, I do have a full time job to maintain as well. When I lived in the city it used to torment me having to wait until the weekend to surf, so one day of rest is fine in comparison.

I don't feel the need to resort to ibuprufen to try and pack more in! I'm not some twenty something anymore, I think my body just needs the rest. I'll adjust that schedule depending on surf, forecast, whether it is dry or not and if I get soreness that is cured by a days rest then that's ok, I try and avoid overdoing it to the point where I need two days rest. My muscle soreness is consistent with the type of activity I am doing, not weird aches in unrelated places. I probably got a different body type to you too, very slightly built (inherited my mothers tiny east asian frame), so I am slow twitch fibre which is getting pushed hard

For what it’s worth, and at the further risk of becoming a plant paradox evangelist, PP is all about gut health. Two of the major issues it effectively resolves, which may not apply to your condition, is ‘leaky gut’ and an unhealthy microbiome. It can be tricky to establish a good microbiome and maintain it. PP does that. I think most people don’t realize the importance of a healthy microbiome.

 

[oneula]

push-ups, pull-ups and similar old school exercises using your body weight as weight
holding yourself up on arm bars and lifting your knees to your chest with a twist
swimming butterfly stroke for your neck, back and shoulders and breath

I think that's all you need to do other than surf as much as you can maybe 3-4 days a week?

 

[VonMeister]

There are still a lot of boxers that believe that lifting weights is counterproductive. Long story short, my grandfather was a piece of work. And he was a fighter. I wouldn't say he taught me how to box, it was more like he taught me how to win a street fight. (I was getting bullied by kids 3-4 years older than I was. That ended) Not that into lifting. He didit, but it was done in a very specific way. As a young surfer I was lifting when NO surfers lifted. It just wasn't done.

My father rode his last wave in the later half of his seventies. He couldn't handle the crowds. He skied. Black diamond runs. Into his late 80's. Ski most of the day. I'd want to quit. Find a hot tub, some anti inflammatory/pain killer drugs, a beer and a nap. He wanted to keep going. A stroke finally slowed him down. And he was never that into the gym. Surf, walk, ski, hike, no weights, no trainers. Hopefully I got some of that. So far so good. I just need to pull myself together. Dad was relentlessly positive. Friends jokingly call me "glass half empty guy." Working to change that.

Does a boxer need to be able to deadlift 1000 pounds? Of course not, but to say boxers don't need to resistance train with the goal of becoming stronger is silly.

 

[Sharky]

Does a boxer need to be able to deadlift 1000 pounds? Of course not, but to say boxers don't need to resistance train with the goal of becoming stronger is silly.

I agree, but by the same token, you must know that for decades upon decades fighters were advised to avoid lifting weights. And in a lot of circles, still are. I got in trouble for it. It used to be common advice. It's not like I'm making it up.

Why Lifting Weights Won’t Increase Punching Power (expertboxing.com)

This article is a little more even handed.

Do Boxers Lift Weights & Should They? Strength Training For Boxing - Sweet Science of Fighting

Do Boxers Lift Weights When They Train and is it Beneficial? – ShortBoxing

Do Weights Make You Slow? - Boxing Science

My answer is if it is done right, it's beneficial. By the same token, I've seen people that were beasts on a weight pile that had shockingly limp punches. Obviously lifting weights doesn't make up for lousy technique.

The man in my avatar was against weights. Yet he made us do these horrible knuckle pushups on a hardwood floor. Body weight is still weight. But...

Why Lifting Weights Doesn’t Help Increasing Punching Power (boxingroyale.com)

The argument continues.

 

[Havoc]

went on a surf bender this week (for me) and did 3 sessions in a row all 2-3 hrs. waves were bigger too. what helped was stretching each night and getting sleep.

gonna start adding nightly stretching into the mix. comment from one-off about stretching in 3,2,1...

 

[Mr J]

... Of course, the more you can bend your spine the better… but for many, myself included, training the spine to flex is wrought with injuries and setbacks. I prefer to focus on the stuff above.

Doing this stuff above along with practicing pop ups at home can really clean up your takeoff. Hope this helps.

All what you wrote regarding dry land/resistance training of knee to come to chest and foot to lift up to shin sounds like good advice

I am wondering what you mean by needing to bend the spine though? Do you mean arch or round the back or both during takeoff?

I don't think the pop needs much bend in either direction. I'm on holiday in Bangkok right now and tried some this morning on the floor to confirm. I'm doing the "chicken wing" style and it goes something like this (regular foot explanation)

1. Paddling position after wave is caught and ready to pop up. Hands flat on deck, lower chest in contact with board.
2. Feet will be hanging off the end of the tail on a shortboar. Right knee bends to pull foot on to the tail pad. Chest remains in contact with deck. To facilitate this the right leg rotates outwards at the hip. Knee will be hanging over the side of the right rail. Body tilts slightly to the left.
3. Arms push out to make room to get the left (front) foot between the hands. This does mean the hips will need to lift off the deck (only the left side may have been in contact). Lifting the front pelvis off the deck means there is no extreme arching of the back and because the back leg has not extended much, there is not much rounding of the back either.

4. Front foot does most of the driving upwards and the hands don't leave the deck until the front foot is planted between them. Dry land practise is never going to be quite the same as a real wave catching situation, but I think I would notice if it was requiring me to arch or round my back significantly.

Its sort of a two stage take off and the emphasis is on controlling things rather than speed of pop up.

 

[slipped_disc]

@Mr J you're right for a healthy spine. the amount of flex required for popping up isn't too extreme. my comment is probably more specific for someone with a low back injury -- where any amount of flexion can be challenging.

 

[Mr J]

@slipped_disc , yes there is going to be a fair amount of individuality, particularly with middle aged surfers. What I consider moderate can be another person's extreme and vice versa.

I've had chiropractic and massage therapy for what was thought to most likely be a bulging disk - plain x-ray didn't show anything. The massage therapist could tell that I was arching my back too much, he didn't surf so had no specific advice, but since then I adjusted my paddling technique to keep my belly off the board, particularly during those last few explosive paddles needed to get us into a wave. This requires maintaining some ab-tension. Not everyone needs to do this I expect. The massage therapist said that it I appeared to have sorted the problem. This was about 12 years ago and at that point my back had recovered, but I was probably heading for more trouble if I carried on.