The Russians get it. Obama, the Establishment and the Left don't.

hal9000

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GromsDad said:
hal9000 said:
GromsDad said:
This is not a one or the other sort of thing. If only you were as outraged over the things exposed by Wikileaks I might be able to take you seriously.
Ok, so assuming that other state actors, nations, or agents of those nations, are engaging in cyber attacks and cyber espionage: what should the United States do about it, and what will/should Trump do about it?
Are you really this naieve???? Do you think our intelligence forces aren't cyber attacking and cyber snooping the governments of Russia, China, Iran, Isreal, India, Pakistan and every other nation on the planet? That's their freaking job. Those countries all have their own intelligence forces who's job it is to do the same to us. That is the way of the world. Quit whining over Russia doing it because your side lost the election. Where is your outrage over the things revealed in the Wikileaks emails????
I'm over the Russia thing. I very clearly stated this fact. I'm willing to move on. But your reply seems to indicate that you do accept the information provided that shows that foreign entities are hacking US servers in an attempt to influence policy in the USA. Maybe you're a little paranoid.
 

Gnudz

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GromsDad said:
This is not a one or the other sort of thing. If only you were as outraged over the things exposed by Wikileaks I might be able to take you seriously.
Please provide one example from the Wikileaks material that is as outrageous as siding with Putin and Assange while disparaging our own country's intelligence agencies.

Just one.

Edit: Never mind. Provide any example you want to, I doubt you can, but it doesn't make any difference.

This is not about Clinton versus Trump, in that regard you are right ("This is not a one or the other sort of thing"). This is about Trump/Putin/Assange versus the U.S. intelligence agencies. This is about how Trump has publicly disparaged our own country's agencies while praising Putin and Assange. That this is not outrageous to every American baffles me.

Nothing in the Podesta/Wikileaks revelations outraged me this much because there was nothing as traitorous in them. Prove me wrong if you can, or want to, but it's a moot point now. It's farting in the wind.

 

StuAzole

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GromsDad said:
This is not a one or the other sort of thing. If only you were as outraged over the things exposed by Wikileaks I might be able to take you seriously.
says the guy who's been outraged by nothing Trump's done, from getting cozy with Wall Street to pay for play, it's only bad when it's Hillary!
 

GromsDad

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Something to ponder:

We are told by our government intelligence agencies that the Russian Government hacked the DNC and Podesta in an effort to elect Donald Trump. Pay close attention here. They've assigned a motive. They've defined intentions. How do they know that? How could they possibly know that. Stick with me here. Is that an admission by our government that they themselves have hacked into the Russian government and are reading their sh!t?
 

Gnudz

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GromsDad said:
Something to ponder:

We are told by our government intelligence agencies that the Russian Government hacked the DNC and Podesta in an effort to elect Donald Trump. Pay close attention here. They've assigned a motive. They've defined intentions. How do they know that? How could they possibly know that. Stick with me here. Is that an admission by our government that they themselves have hacked into the Russian government and are reading their sh!t?
Yes.
 

Mike_Jones

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StuAzole said:
GromsDad said:
This is not a one or the other sort of thing. If only you were as outraged over the things exposed by Wikileaks I might be able to take you seriously.
says the guy who's been outraged by nothing Trump's done, from getting cozy with Wall Street to pay for play, it's only bad when it's Hillary!

..
 

Mike_Jones

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manbearpig said:
Just avoiding the question there squid, so typical.
Edward Snowden provided proof that Obama's Security Agencies were illegally wholesale spying on Obama's political enemies.

First Obama's "hacking" claim was that "the Russians" had hacked America's voting machine system. That was proven to be a lie. Then the left claimed that the problem was that the Russians hacked the Vermont power grid. That was proven to be a lie. Now Obama claims, no no no, the problem is that Russia hacked Hillary's computers which showed that Hillary had illegally exposed classified national security information.

I can see why the left tried to make hacking charges stick without exposing what the charges really are. However, the lies have piled up so deep that now it looks like you're all just a bunch of liars.
..
 

StuAzole

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It's going to be so fun when someone (but not Russia, of course) starts releasing stuff on Trump and the RNC. And yes, it's only a matter of time until it happens.
 

Ifallalot

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Gnudz said:
This is not about Clinton versus Trump, in that regard you are right ("This is not a one or the other sort of thing"). This is about Trump/Putin/Assange versus the U.S. intelligence agencies. This is about how Trump has publicly disparaged our own country's agencies while praising Putin and Assange. That this is not outrageous to every American baffles me.
Maybe because we Americans have realized that the American intelligence agencies are as much of an enemy to peace and the American rank and file citizen as Putin might be?

Pretty much everything in the CIA's history since they were converted from the OSS has been either blunders or actions that led directly to American citizens dying. I guess you could argue that they helped keep the economic hegemony going but as we've all seen that usually ends up hurting Americans in the long run as their jobs get shipped to somewhere with near-slave labor after the situation is "pacified"

That, combined with the other alphabet soup agencies that are literally spying on us and lying to us in the name of "national security" creates a warranted distrust.

Wanting to stop it is probably "farting in the wind" (I love that) but that's how people can come trust Assange and Putin more

[video:youtube]EZDBXm11WXY[/video]
 

VonMeister

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StuAzole said:
It's going to be so fun when someone (but not Russia, of course) starts releasing stuff on Trump and the RNC. And yes, it's only a matter of time until it happens.
I'm sure Russia kept some for themselves just in case Hillary was elected.

There's no indication that the RNC was hacked and Trump doesn;t use email. Unlike the DNC, the RNC invited the FBI in to look at their servers and see if there were any traces of a hack.
 

StuAzole

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VonMeister said:
StuAzole said:
It's going to be so fun when someone (but not Russia, of course) starts releasing stuff on Trump and the RNC. And yes, it's only a matter of time until it happens.
I'm sure Russia kept some for themselves just in case Hillary was elected.

There's no indication that the RNC was hacked and Trump doesn;t use email.
That's nice. He's totally safe then - I mean it's not like most of the "Hillary" emails were not actually hers.
 

Mike_Jones

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StuAzole said:
It's going to be so fun when someone (but not Russia, of course) starts releasing stuff on Trump and the RNC. And yes, it's only a matter of time until it happens.

Conservatives didn't start the shitstorm over"Russian hacking". The Left did. Now you DON'T LIKE that it ended up exposing your lying and treachery. Tough sh!t. You made your bed. Now lie in it.

Strange, isn't it, how the left picks all of the fights no matter who's in charge?
..
 

FecalFace

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squidley said:
StuAzole said:
It's going to be so fun when someone (but not Russia, of course) starts releasing stuff on Trump and the RNC. And yes, it's only a matter of time until it happens.

Conservatives didn't start the shitstorm over"Russian hacking". The Left did. Now you DON'T LIKE that it ended up exposing your lying and treachery. Tough sh!t. You made your bed. Now lie in it.

Strange, isn't it, how the left picks all of the fights no matter who's in charge?
..
W
T
F

Even Trump says that Russians did the hacking and he read the classified report.

:foreheadslap:


I stayed neutral on this issue because frankly IDGF, what's done is done, but the lengths the rightards go to in order to deny the Russian involvement is extraordinary.

And just can't let go of the HIllary thing... :foreheadslap: :roflmao:
 

FecalFace

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Donald Trump no longer denies that Russia orchestrated a cyber-attack against Hillary Clinton’s campaign and her party, according to his top advisers, who also blamed Democrats for the breach and falsely characterized the testimony of an intelligence chief to Congress.



Trump’s incoming White House chief of staff, Reince Priebus, told Fox News Sunday the president-elect “is not denying that entities in Russia were behind this particular hacking campaign”.

“I think he accepts the findings,” Priebus said, referring to an FBI, CIA and NSA report on Russian interference in the election. A declassified version was released to the public on Friday, asserting that Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin, “ordered” the operation to get Trump elected. Trump received a classified briefing earlier that day.

Priebus then tried to diminish the effects of the hack, which was for the US an unprecedented campaign of releasing stolen emails, through proxies such as WikiLeaks, from selected candidates and staffers.

“When this whole thing started, it started from the Russians 50 years ago, in other words this is something that has been going on in our elections for many many years,” Priebus said. “It happens every election period.”

Putin has denied any role in the hacks. Trump himself has not said whether he accepts the CIA, FBI and NSA’s “high confidence” conclusion that Putin ordered the hack to undermine the legitimacy of the election and assist the Republican’s campaign.

During the election campaign, Trump sometimes contradicted and rejected statements made on his behalf by advisers. He has scheduled a press conference, after months of delay, for later this week.

Intelligence officials gave the president-elect a classified intelligence briefing on Friday. Two days later, Trump adviser Kellyanne Conway told CNN’s State of the Union that the president-elect believes “Russia, China and others have attempted to attack different government institutions and businesses and individuals and organizations over a series of time”.

Conway also falsely said that James Clapper, the director of national intelligence, testified to Congress “that any aspiration to influence our elections failed”.

Intelligence officials have said there is no evidence that hackers tampered with voting machines, but on Thursday Clapper told Congress the agencies were not responsible for measuring the effect of the hacked emails on voter opinion.

“Alleged attacks … and aspirations to interfere with our democracy failed,” Conway insisted.

She did not acknowledge that, throughout the campaign, Trump and his aides frequently drew on stolen emails to cast aspersion on Clinton and Democrats. At his last press conference, in July, Trump said he hoped Russia would find and publish 30,000 emails from the private server used by Clinton when she was secretary of state. He later said this was a joke.

Conway instead said that quoting private emails was “equivalent” to quoting public remarks by Republican senators and governors. She added that Democrats were dislikable and should have had stronger security.

“We didn’t need WikiLeaks to convince the American people that they didn’t like her, didn’t trust her, didn’t find her to be honest,” Conway said, of Clinton. “She started it.”

Similarly, Priebus said Democrats “allowed” hackers to steal material.

Some Republicans were less sanguine. Senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham told NBC’s Meet the Press that although they, like leading Democrats, do not believe the hack alone cost Clinton the election, they do believe it sets a dangerous precedent for the legitimacy of future elections.

Both called for new sanctions and more assistance to Ukraine, which has for three years fought a grueling civil war against separatists backed by Russia.

“We should all, Republicans, Democrats, condemn Russia for what they did,” Graham said. “Most Republicans are condemning what Russia did. And to those who are gleeful about it, ‘You’re a political hack. You’re not a Republican. You’re not a patriot.’”

Graham said he hoped Trump would take “an opportunity to make Russia pay a price for interfering in our election so it will deter others in the future”.

McCain said he intended to investigate with colleagues in Congress, even if he is opposed by Senate or White House leadership.

“The Russians intended to affect the outcome of this election,” he said. “And if they were able to succeed doing that, then you destroy democracies. Because you destroy the fundamental which is free and fair election.”

Graham added: “You can’t go on with your life as a democracy when a foreign entity is trying to compromise the election process.”

President Obama echoed the senators’ remarks, telling ABC in an interview broadcast on Sunday that he worried about Republicans aligning themselves with Putin over other Americans.

“We have to remind ourselves we’re on the same team,” he said. “Vladimir Putin’s not on our team.”


'He'll take a chainsaw to it': is Obama's legacy strong enough to survive Trump?
Read more
Obama did not attribute Trump’s victory to the hack, but said he shared the intelligence agencies’ “high confidence” of Kremlin culpability.

“We have to do,” he said, “is to make sure that all of us think about how we approach our elections and our democracy not only to secure them from vote tampering, but also to make sure that we understand when propaganda is being churned through the system.”

The US and Russia both interfered in foreign elections throughout the cold war, through active and indirect measures, but Obama noted that the Kremlin has increasingly tried to undermine governments, for instance in Kiev, through the internet.

The strategy, the president said, exacerbated a culture where “everything’s true and everything’s false. You know, nothing is settled. Everything is contested”.

Trump has not called for an inquiry into the hack, but on Friday instead asked Senate and House leaders to investigate a voluntary leak to the press about the intelligence briefing. On Sunday, Conway repeated his call to keep classified information out of the news.

“We cannot have people in positions of keeping us all safe and knowing classified information or intelligence information, we can’t have them leaking to the media,” she said.
 

StuAzole

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squidley said:
StuAzole said:
It's going to be so fun when someone (but not Russia, of course) starts releasing stuff on Trump and the RNC. And yes, it's only a matter of time until it happens.

Conservatives didn't start the shitstorm over"Russian hacking". The Left did. Now you DON'T LIKE that it ended up exposing your lying and treachery. Tough sh!t. You made your bed. Now lie in it.

Strange, isn't it, how the left picks all of the fights no matter who's in charge?
..
Like I said, it's going to be fun when the Trump leaks begin. Weeeee!
 

hal9000

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StuAzole said:
squidley said:
StuAzole said:
It's going to be so fun when someone (but not Russia, of course) starts releasing stuff on Trump and the RNC. And yes, it's only a matter of time until it happens.

Conservatives didn't start the shitstorm over"Russian hacking". The Left did. Now you DON'T LIKE that it ended up exposing your lying and treachery. Tough sh!t. You made your bed. Now lie in it.

Strange, isn't it, how the left picks all of the fights no matter who's in charge?
..
Like I said, it's going to be fun when the Trump leaks begin. Weeeee!

Can't wait to hear the n-bomb tapes. You know they're out there.
 

Gnudz

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ifallalot said:
Gnudz said:
This is not about Clinton versus Trump, in that regard you are right ("This is not a one or the other sort of thing"). This is about Trump/Putin/Assange versus the U.S. intelligence agencies. This is about how Trump has publicly disparaged our own country's agencies while praising Putin and Assange. That this is not outrageous to every American baffles me.
Maybe because we Americans have realized that the American intelligence agencies are as much of an enemy to peace and the American rank and file citizen as Putin might be?

Pretty much everything in the CIA's history since they were converted from the OSS has been either blunders or actions that led directly to American citizens dying. I guess you could argue that they helped keep the economic hegemony going but as we've all seen that usually ends up hurting Americans in the long run as their jobs get shipped to somewhere with near-slave labor after the situation is "pacified"

That, combined with the other alphabet soup agencies that are literally spying on us and lying to us in the name of "national security" creates a warranted distrust.

Wanting to stop it is probably "farting in the wind" (I love that) but that's how people can come trust Assange and Putin more

[video:youtube]EZDBXm11WXY[/video]
I mostly agree with you, and Putin is certainly more of a threat to rank and file Russians than he is to American citizens, but keep in mind that Putin is straight up KGB. The KGB, and now the GRU, are like the CIA off their meds. They are the honey badgers of intelligence agencies.

I'm not at all surprised or outraged that Putin ordered his intelligence agencies to try and meddle in our election. I'm outraged that they are getting a pass by Trump and his supporters. Trump and his supporters have been praising/excusing Putin and his intelligence agencies while disparaging ours.

I'm not a huge fan of the CIA, etc... for a whole lot of reasons, both things they've done and things they've failed to do, but I do recognize that much of what they do is necessary to maintain our own country's security. I also believe that most of the people who serve our country in intelligence positions do so with our country's best interests in mind, and I don't believe for a second that U.S. intelligence is anywhere near as corrupt as that of the Russians.

For Trump to publicly and repeatedly denigrate his own intelligence services is stupid and dangerous. Then to go on and excuse Putin and Russian intelligence operations against us is downright traitorous.