Are the Democrats about to cook up a fake war

[Autoprax]

Nobody in the west ever thought Russia was a formidable opponent in conventional warfare. The question that was answered in Ukraine is were they capable of fighting through layers of corruption to even get to the defending their borders...which has been answered. Neither the Wests or Russia took Ukraine's military seriously and both have since learned.

The problem for Ukraine is Russia is retooling in the way of more and more artillery and cannon fodder. You see it on a small scale today as the battle lines are slowly moving west and north again. The US and the West continue to dither and operate without a plan...unless the plan is to just bleed Russia until they lose enough troops to just give up. Personally I thought we were past large proxy wars like this but it looks more and more like the evil of this strategy is alive and well.

I think it's a tricky situation.

Under reaction and over reaction are both legitimate threats.

I do think the plan is to do a slow bleed.

It's like cooking the lobster.

You slowly raise the heat and it never jumps out of the pan.

Of course fighting is a threat (a proxy war) but so is letting them play gangster in Europe.

Either one will have lots of really negative consequences that will allow anyone to confirm their biases.

 

[VonMeister]

To be fair almost nobody, especially in that neighborhood, has had a fertility rate above replacement.

@VonMeister Any opinion on Russia annexing a lot of sh!t East of the Dnieper and Lviv become Lwow and Odessa being part of Polska or some such, as a plan B to some sort of optimistic, pre 2014 UA border plan A?

The Ukrainians are going to have to agree.....Right now they are beholden to the west for everything so you would assume that we could force them onto some sort of agreement. I'm not sure the west has the appetite for allowing Russia to enjoy the fruits of another incursion. It certainly wouldn't be good policy because like Georgia, then Crimea, and now Ukraine...they aren't going to stop until they have military dominance over all Russian borders and they only way to do this is to move past the Russian plains and control the high ground of places like the Caucasus and the coastal Baltic Sea.

 

[afoaf]

View attachment 147110

I didn't believe the quote, so I looked it up

in spirit, it is correct, but obviously does not deserve to have "quotes" around it and should include elipses and brackets....

'The idea that we're going to send in offensive equipment and have planes and tanks and trains going in with American pilots and American crews, just understand … that's called World War III, okay? Let's get it straight here, guys,' he said last March. 'We will not fight the third world war in Ukraine.'

 

[Sharkbiscuit]

I didn't believe the quote, so I looked it up

in spirit, it is correct, but obviously does not deserve to have "quotes" around it and should include elipses and brackets....

'The idea that we're going to send in offensive equipment and have planes and tanks and trains going in with American pilots and American crews, just understand … that's called World War III, okay? Let's get it straight here, guys,' he said last March. 'We will not fight the third world war in Ukraine.'

I was curious about the context, whether that meant US troops in tanks or Ukrainian troops in tanks. But he never gave us his word as a Biden - the Walder Frey mayhap is implied.

 

[mundus]

I didn't believe the quote, so I looked it up

in spirit, it is correct, but obviously does not deserve to have "quotes" around it and should include elipses and brackets....

'The idea that we're going to send in offensive equipment and have planes and tanks and trains going in with American pilots and American crews, just understand … that's called World War III, okay? Let's get it straight here, guys,' he said last March. 'We will not fight the third world war in Ukraine.'

Duffy being dishonest once again.

 

[Duffy LaCoronilla]

Duffy being dishonest once again.

This from the guy who repeatedly says that I said the moon landing was faked, which I never said, liar.

 

[mundus]

This from the guy who repeatedly says that I said the moon landing was faked, which I never said, liar.

You claimed it was filmed in a TV studio. I know you will deny it being dishonest.

 

[Ifallalot]

Nobody in the west ever thought Russia was a formidable opponent in conventional warfare. The question that was answered in Ukraine is were they capable of fighting through layers of corruption to even get to the defending their borders...which has been answered. Neither the Wests or Russia took Ukraine's military seriously and both have since learned.

The problem for Ukraine is Russia is retooling in the way of more and more artillery and cannon fodder. You see it on a small scale today as the battle lines are slowly moving west and north again. The US and the West continue to dither and operate without a plan...unless the plan is to just bleed Russia until they lose enough troops to just give up. Personally I thought we were past large proxy wars like this but it looks more and more like the evil of this strategy is alive and well.

it's funny how quickly the war has turned into Late Civil War/Western Front WWI trench warfare

We know it will take millions upon millions of Russian dead for them to "give up," so it will end up bleeding us dry as well

Those of you who support this are as gross as the people who supported WWI

 

[Ifallalot]

That’s exactly the plan. As of a few months ago Russia had lost an estimated 20% of their fighting age men, which for just under year is more than a drop in the bucket. In the fall they were literally pulling prison bitches out of prison and putting them on the front lines. Russia already had an upside down birthday cake age distribution and this war has only made it worse, so there ability to ever have a standing army again is highly unlikely.

History has shown us that Russia will get close to committing self-genocide before giving up

 

[Sharkbiscuit]

Yes, in World War 1 the Russians kept doing what the czar told them instead of making vast territorial concessions and fucking merking the person in charge and overthrowing the government.

 

[Aquaman2]

Funny about how "Dems cooked up this (not-so fake) war." After a couple of years of fighting in Ukraine, Russia will become "not in the world" economically. If you have nothing, you have nothing to lose. If Putin used tactical nukes in the "fake war" NATO would retaliate so severely that Russia would not be in Ukraine anymore, at all. US Satellites in space can see all the Russian military assets and ammo dumps near the Ukraine border. Those could all be destroyed by a single massive missile strike on many locations.

“Our submarines are capable of launching over 500 nuclear warheads, which guarantees the destruction of the U.S. and all NATO countries,” Kiselyov said on his weekly program, “Vesti Nedeli.”

“Why do we need a world if Russia is not in it?”

“Why Do We Need a World if Russia Is Not In It?”: State TV Presenter Opens Show With Ominous Address - The Moscow Times

 

[VonMeister]

it's funny how quickly the war has turned into Late Civil War/Western Front WWI trench warfare

We know it will take millions upon millions of Russian dead for them to "give up," so it will end up bleeding us dry as well

Those of you who support this are as gross as the people who supported WWI

History says about 500,000.

 

[Ifallalot]

History says about 500,000.

Multiply that by 3

http://www.centre-robert-schuman.org/userfiles/files/REPERES%20%E2%80%93%20module%201-1-1%20-%20explanatory%20notes%20%E2%80%93%20World%20War%20I%20casualties%20%E2%80%93%20EN.pdf

Russian Empire Included in total are 1,451,000 killed or missing in action and died of wounds.

 

[Ifallalot]

Yes, in World War 1 the Russians kept doing what the czar told them instead of making vast territorial concessions and fucking merking the person in charge and overthrowing the government.

For 3 years....

 

[PRCD]

That’s exactly the plan. As of a few months ago Russia had lost an estimated 20% of their fighting age men, which for just under year is more than a drop in the bucket. In the fall they were literally pulling prison bitches out of prison and putting them on the front lines. Russia already had an upside down birthday cake age distribution and this war has only made it worse, so there ability to ever have a standing army again is highly unlikely.

Everything you just said is true of Ukraine also. Their demographic structure and TFR is actually worse and they have fewer people. They're conscripting people at gunpoint and there are videos of this on Telegram. Meanwhile, Ursula Von Der Leyen accidentally reported 100,000 AFU KIA, of which some multiple is wounded in action.

The morality of getting two peoples to kill each-other is dubious in the extreme, whether or not you've judged them to be an enemy since peace is obviously better than war. There are also the risks of wider war - Poland sending more troops, Belarus sending more, the latest Israeli strikes on Iranian factories used to make drones for Russia, and the fact that Russia has nukes and the escalation from tactical nukes to strategic nukes is much shorter than the escalation from conventional weapons to tactical nukes. The latter should give people extreme pause in wanting a proxy war with Russia but Westerners are a suicidal, nihilistic people.

All of this was preventable by making Ukraine a neutral country. Those who say Russia was going to re-constitute the Russian empire or USSR have to explain how this was possible when they can't even get across the Ukraine. The counter-point is usually, "Yeah, because we're helping them!" Well, we could've honored the terms of previous agreements to prevent the invasion in the first place and still helped if they invaded. We didn't because we wanted a proxy war in the first place. We did a similar thing to Iraq and Iran.

Why are we so bloody-minded? What goes around comes around.

 

[VonMeister]

There is no neutral country option for Ukraine. Russia never accepted Ukraine as a separate territory. The only negotiated options would have been:

Allow Russia to set up a puppet government similar to Belarus.

Allow Russia to annex the Donbas territory plus the south. (Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson and Odessa (maybe Kharkiv))

 

[PRCD]

There is no neutral country option for Ukraine. Russia never accepted Ukraine as a separate territory. The only negotiated options would have been:

Allow Russia to set up a puppet government similar to Belarus.

Right. Instead there is a Western puppet government. Remember during the USSR we fought all kinds of proxy wars with the USSR in Latin America over whether their puppet or ours would be in charge (this is a big reason they hate us, btw). When you meddle in the sphere of influence of another great power, you get conflict. We know this and wanted conflict.

Allow Russia to annex the Donbas territory plus the south. (Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson and Odessa (maybe Kharkiv))

From the point-of-view of the average Russian-speaking Ukrainian, this would be preferable. From our point-of-view, I don't know why it matters other than we want to fight Russia.

 

[grapedrink]

Everything you just said is true of Ukraine also. Their demographic structure and TFR is actually worse and they have fewer people. They're conscripting people at gunpoint and there are videos of this on Telegram. Meanwhile, Ursula Von Der Leyen accidentally reported 100,000 AFU KIA, of which some multiple is wounded in action.

Who cares if it's true for Ukraine or not? They at least have enough sense to not invade other countries. Can't blame them for wanting to defend themselves.

All of this was preventable by making Ukraine a neutral country. Those who say Russia was going to re-constitute the Russian empire or USSR have to explain how this was possible when they can't even get across the Ukraine.

Several conservative posters here seemed to think that Russia would roll them right over. I don't think Putin was expecting such resistance, along with how much help Ukraine would get from NATO. Authoritarians and dictators tend to overestimate their own capabilities because everyone below them feeding them information are either too scared to tell the truth about how ill-prepared they are and/or are pilfering resources for their own agenda.

 

[afoaf]

Authoritarians and dictators tend to overestimate their own capabilities because everyone below them feeding them information are either too scared to tell the truth about how ill-prepared they are and/or are pilfering resources for their own agenda.

this is Musk's problem presently, as far as I can tell

I wonder how Bezos operates...he doesn't seem as prone to these ridiculous larks

 

[Autoprax]

I didn't believe the quote, so I looked it up

in spirit, it is correct, but obviously does not deserve to have "quotes" around it and should include elipses and brackets....

'The idea that we're going to send in offensive equipment and have planes and tanks and trains going in with American pilots and American crews, just understand … that's called World War III, okay? Let's get it straight here, guys,' he said last March. 'We will not fight the third world war in Ukraine.'

Humans [Duffy] are by nature narrow framers.