Tucker Carlson: The End of Men

youcantbeserious

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Wasn't directing the religion part at you, but to answer your question, it tells me that man is religious and religions are handed down through families and nations are extensions of families.
But that still doesn't explain why someone would be convinced their religion was the correct one. And if one has as much chance of being incorrect as another, than all that's left is the explanatory power of myth, which is all well and good, but why fight over it?

In addition, the modern nation state did not emerge until the late seventeenth or the late eighteenth century (depending on whether you think the English commonwealth or modern France is the first, there is no small degree of scholarly wrangling over this). If the nation state is the extension of the family, why did it emerge so late? Certainly families are much older (not the nuclear family of course, that is pretty new - much newer than nation states).
 

PRCD

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But that still doesn't explain why someone would be convinced their religion was the correct one. And if one has as much chance of being incorrect as another,
This is a very Western point-of-view. Tradition - what is handed-down from family - is viewed as correct until proven otherwise in the vast majority of the world until recently.

than all that's left is the explanatory power of myth, which is all well and good, but why fight over it?
You mean, physically as in combat or "fight" as in the sense of persuasion?
In addition, the modern nation state did not emerge until the late seventeenth or the late eighteenth century (depending on whether you think the English commonwealth or modern France is the first, there is no small degree of scholarly wrangling over this). If the nation state is the extension of the family, why did it emerge so late? Certainly families are much older (not the nuclear family of course, that is pretty new - much newer than nation states).
I'm not talking about modern nation-states. I'm talking about nations as in "ethnos."
 

$kully

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At its core isn’t elitism fundamental to most religions? Isn’t the mere existence of other people thinking that their god and their beliefs is the way or people with no beliefs challenging the set of beliefs that believers base their lives on?
 

Boneroni

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At its core isn’t elitism fundamental to most religions? Isn’t the mere existence of other people thinking that their god and their beliefs is the way or people with no beliefs challenging the set of beliefs that believers base their lives on?
It doesn't have to be, but it sure seems like it is. Especially if you listen to the religious extremists who yell so loudly about everything. I'm pretty sure there are tenants in many religions about acceptance and love (and equality) of those who believe otherwise. The crazy fcks don't abide by those tenants, though, and their voice is often the loudest.
 
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Random Guy

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Roman Catholics believe, or at least they are taught, that anyone who isn’t baptized will spend eternity burning in hell
sure, you can love someone who isn’t baptized, but if they’re still not baptized by the time their dead, they’re going to burn in hell

im not sure when Jewish people started referring to Jes as the chosen people

muslims are the only ones who are rewarded with a harem of virgins when they

those are pretty elitist and exclusionary
Not sure about other religions
 
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youcantbeserious

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1)This is a very Western point-of-view. Tradition - what is handed-down from family - is viewed as correct until proven otherwise in the vast majority of the world until recently.

2) You mean, physically as in combat or "fight" as in the sense of persuasion?

3) I'm not talking about modern nation-states. I'm talking about nations as in "ethnos."
1) Fair enough. But then wouldn't non-Western traditions, say the original myths of the Comanche or the Inuit or Hawaiians, be equally valid as those of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam? What basis would anyone have for arguing the supremacy of a Judeo-Christian worldview, especially in a pluralist society?

2) I think that through the centuries, there has been a fair amount of actual combat around the subject, most famously in the West.

3) Got it. You should probably use the term ethnic group then, because a nation means something very, very different in modern parlance, and is also specifically Western in its etymology.
 
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Boneroni

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Roman Catholics believe, or at least they are taught, that anyone who isn’t baptized will spend eternity burning in hell
sure, you can love someone who isn’t baptized, but if they’re still not baptized by the time their dead, they’re going to burn in hell

im not sure when Jewish people started referring to Jes as the chosen people

muslims are the only ones who are rewarded with a harem of virgins when they

those are pretty elitist and exclusionary
Not sure about other religions
Very true all, but Roman catholics do not encompass all of christianity.

Maybe I shouldn't try to speak for anyone but myself. I don't believe in hell or any of that elite or exclusionary stuff. I don't think my beliefs are more likely or more valid than anyone else. So, maybe I'm not a typical christian? :shrug:
 

PRCD

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1) Fair enough. But then wouldn't non-Western traditions, say the original myths of the Comanche or the Inuit or Hawaiians,
Reading "Anabasis" and reading a bit about native religions, ancient religions were localized, ethnic, and expedient. You didn't worship gods in your pantheon because they were the universal gods everyone was obligated to worship, but because they were the gods of your tribe/nation/region and they obviously held sway here and helped with the harvest and fertility. Xenophon never criticized the Persians gods nor any of the gods of the regions he passed through. The Greeks weren't helping Cyrus and his men over religion but because Cyrus paid them. The Persians and Greeks, despite being in Cyrus' army, sacrificed to their own gods in the morning and didn't debate whose gods were the right ones. On a larger scale, emperors might argue that their gods were more powerful by pointing to their own might and size of their empire, not because their gods were the true gods. The ancients seemed aware that there was a universal God of gods over all humanity, but they didn't have a practice for worshipping him in most cases. You didn't build and idol or totem to Him.

be equally valid as those of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam?
Judaism claims that the Hebrew God is the only true God, all humanity is obligated to worship Him though he revealed Himself only to the Jews, and the rest of the gods are demons. Christianity agrees and argues that God is triune, Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah (incarnate God) promised in the Old Testament, and now God has been revealed to all the nations not just the Jews. Islam believes there is one God and Mohammed is the prophet of God. WIthin each of of these religions are claims that contradict the other religions. They can't all be true. If Jesus was the final prophet, why do I need Mohammed? If Jesus isn't the promised Messiah according to Jewish Scripture, why should I believe it?
What basis would anyone have for arguing the supremacy of a Judeo-Christian worldview, especially in a pluralist society?
Pluralism just means everyone is allowed a measured of civic freedom of religion to worship their gods in their own way - religio licitas in the Roman empire. If someone asks me why I believe my religion is the true one, I'm going to tell them.
2) I think that through the centuries, there has been a fair amount of actual combat around the subject, most famously in the West.
Well, we're Westerners so we've mostly learned our own history. Most people bringing religion into matters of war are just making up a pretext for doing it. Westerners use Christianity obviuosly. Sargon used his gods.
3) Got it. You should probably use the term ethnic group then, because a nation means something very, very different in modern parlance, and is also specifically Western in its etymology.
Bing. I'm using the pre-1648 definition.
 

Kento

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Back on topic. Which religion is most accepting of sunning your scrotum to maintain your manhood?
Since sunning the scrotum is likely going with bleaching the anus, probably all of them.

You're talking about the priest's manhood being maintained via altar boys, I take it?
 

Pico

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Wasn't directing the religion part at you, but to answer your question, it tells me that man is religious and religions are handed down through families and nations are extensions of families.


Do you think the story of Moses meeting with God and receiving the ten commandments is apocryphal? By extension, the stories of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob doing the same?
Man is not religious. Societies are. They need cooperation. The wrath of God and threat of Hell are used to insure cooperation. In a larger society cooperation is essential. In Gods We trust
 
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$kully

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Man is not religious. Societies are. They need cooperation. The wrath of God and threat of Hell are used to insure cooperation. In a larger society cooperation is essential. In Gods We trust
Sure but what religion isn’t dominated by men? Particularly when you get into the fundamentalist versions of most religions. The common theme is that women are second class vessels who are here to make babies and be subservient cooks and cleaners.
 

youcantbeserious

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Reading "Anabasis" and reading a bit about native religions, ancient religions were localized, ethnic, and expedient. You didn't worship gods in your pantheon because they were the universal gods everyone was obligated to worship, but because they were the gods of your tribe/nation/region and they obviously held sway here and helped with the harvest and fertility. Xenophon never criticized the Persians gods nor any of the gods of the regions he passed through. The Greeks weren't helping Cyrus and his men over religion but because Cyrus paid them. The Persians and Greeks, despite being in Cyrus' army, sacrificed to their own gods in the morning and didn't debate whose gods were the right ones. On a larger scale, emperors might argue that their gods were more powerful by pointing to their own might and size of their empire, not because their gods were the true gods. The ancients seemed aware that there was a universal God of gods over all humanity, but they didn't have a practice for worshipping him in most cases. You didn't build and idol or totem to Him.

I mean, that is objectively false in the case of the Greeks. There were idols and totems and statues and rites of worship all over the place. Egyptians too. And in any case, you are limiting things to circum-Mediterranean derivative cultures. But those notions about "ancient" religion don't hold everywhere. They don't hold in Mesoamerica or South America. They don't hold in the Pacific.

Judaism claims that the Hebrew God is the only true God, all humanity is obligated to worship Him though he revealed Himself only to the Jews, and the rest of the gods are demons. Christianity agrees and argues that God is triune, Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah (incarnate God) promised in the Old Testament, and now God has been revealed to all the nations not just the Jews. Islam believes there is one God and Mohammed is the prophet of God. WIthin each of of these religions are claims that contradict the other religions. They can't all be true.

Why should any of them be true? And why should the emergence of some religious traditions with totalizing, exclusive narratives change the rules of the game? Why should anyone be obligated to worship them, or anything for that matter?

If Jesus was the final prophet, why do I need Mohammed?

Big "if," with absolutely no way to test it. So why should anyone believe it if they don't want to?

If Jesus isn't the promised Messiah according to Jewish Scripture, why should I believe it?

Maybe just come to terms with the idea that Christianity is a received tradition that works for you, but it by no means corners the market on truth?

Pluralism just means everyone is allowed a measured of civic freedom of religion to worship their gods in their own way - religio licitas in the Roman empire. If someone asks me why I believe my religion is the true one, I'm going to tell them.

Cool, I respect that. As long as I'm not held to it.

Well, we're Westerners so we've mostly learned our own history. Most people bringing religion into matters of war are just making up a pretext for doing it. Westerners use Christianity obviuosly. Sargon used his gods.

Hard to judge someone's thoughts and motivations for their actions. Were the conquistadors devout or were they just murderous colonials? Were the Crusaders doing God's will in reconquering the Holy Land or were they merely out for plunder? Or was it both?

Bing. I'm using the pre-1648 definition.

I mean, the word first appeared in the 12th century, so have at it. But it's kind of confusing, as there is five decades worth of literature on nations and nationalism -- Anderson, Gellner, Hobsbawm, the list goes on.
 

PRCD

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I mean, that is objectively false in the case of the Greeks. There were idols and totems and statues and rites of worship all over the place. Egyptians too. And in any case, you are limiting things to circum-Mediterranean derivative cultures.
Right, but I don't think there were idols and totems to God or the Allfather or whatever He was called in the local language. You might have statues to lesser gods but not the God over all that texts like Anabasis seem to acknowledge parenthetically.
But those notions about "ancient" religion don't hold everywhere. They don't hold in Mesoamerica or South America. They don't hold in the Pacific.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Why should any of them be true? And why should the emergence of some religious traditions with totalizing, exclusive narratives change the rules of the game? Why should anyone be obligated to worship them, or anything for that matter?
These are WEIRD questions. You're asking why you shouldn't be a modern post-religious Westerner or why you should pick a religion and which one is right to the exclusion of the others?
Hard to judge someone's thoughts and motivations for their actions. Were the conquistadors devout or were they just murderous colonials?
Judging by Bernal Diaz del Castillo, both. The Spaniards did the same to Protestants, not just the meso and south Americans. The Spanish weren't as successful against the Protestants because European disease actually did most of the killing of meso and south americans.
Were the Crusaders doing God's will in reconquering the Holy Land or were they merely out for plunder? Or was it both?
Barbara Tuchman claims that the Pope got tired of English and French nobles fighting each-other so he convinced them to fight the Musselman for God in the "Holy" Land. Back then you had to plunder or you couldn't pay your army and eat. Julius Caesar did the same thing. I'm not a Papist so I don't claim to speak for them or be on their side.
I mean, the word first appeared in the 12th century, so have at it. But it's kind of confusing, as there is five decades worth of literature on nations and nationalism -- Anderson, Gellner, Hobsbawm, the list goes on.
The word "nation" appeared in the 12th century? Here's a usage from 1200 - 2400 years earlier.