Rusty's talk to your shaper Live Instagram series

[Mr J]

So is that a mild drop in thickness at with proportional rail thickness drop makes for a bigger increase in sensitivity than a mild drop in width? In which case I would be inclined to agree with you.

Or do you mean rails the same but drop in thickness at stringer only (flatter deck) makes for a bigger increase in sensitivity? In which case I would be of the opposite opinion.

Rusty did say something like the "key to volume is thickness", so I suppose we can use the two interchangeably.

I suppose there is no absolute answer as Rusty didn't say what type of thickness resize and either didn't say what sort of volume reduction we were looking at or I can't remember. Nevertheless the message is to encourage us to consider all aspects of a custom order not just volume e.g if we are thinking of more volume to help stop us from bogging then think planing area instead - an increase in planing area is what is going to keep us going.

Just out of interest, on my toy step up a 1.5 litre reduction in volume can be obtained with a 1/8" drop in thickness this does a very small proportional rail drop height of about 3/32" inch. So we would be looking at a bigger litre reduction than that for something significant.

 

[Mr J]

@Mr J as usual I agree with you
I kind of feel boards of a particular size, has a volume range you can make them( you really can't match your groveler and step up volume #)
but at some point you have to let that volume number increase or the rails tend to become a bit to bladed
I agree with not fixating on too much, the more I do the better I understand my own range

n4s I think step ups will have bladier rails than our grovellers and can either have slightly bladier rails or similar to our daily HP, however a slight decrease in rail height alone isn't going to do very much for volume as my above experiment with s3d shows (that included a stringer thickness change). Somewhere in these pages I remember Pyzel saying that it does not make sense for a step up to be thinner than the daily driver, so the extra length of a step up is going to send volume up and like you said we can't fight that with the software.

I guess Pyzel was talking about thickness to help us paddle into the waves - which makes sense to me, I know there threads full of erBB tales insisting volume does not help them get into waves and can be a hindrance, but I think they are talking very specific non step up conditions such as at their local grovel break and they are on their semi fish and they got both the break and their board totally wired and feel they don't need more I reckon for step up conditions it is best to operate on the principle of extra thickness is going to help us paddle in to the waves.

You have been producing some really cool looking shapes recently, how many shapes are you on now? My number 4 was sent to get cut before Christmas. Another toy step up, volume gone up a tad by 0.3 litres. This was a result of increasing thickness 1' down from nose, no change to thickness at mid point or 1' up from tail from last years build. This is an attempt to produce a more balanced foil which will paddle better, but taking what Rusty has to say into consideration I am not going to notice the 0.3 litres! Regardless I think it looks better and happy with it. The thickness 1' down from nose is exactly the same as the thickness 1' up from tail 1.6 inches, if I remember correctly Rusty quote some examples of 1.5 inches also the tail thickness to be a tad more than the nose thickness at the 1' mark. Rusty would no doubt be talking about a bigger example board than mine, so that makes my design quite thick.

 

[flyinraptr]

If u ask parmenter about volume u get a 2 page education on how it doesn’t matter lol

The last 5 custom boards i've ordered have no volume indicated on them ... all hand shaped. The only things i go by now is length, width and thickness ... i would have to agree with Mr. Parmenter.

 

[casa_mugrienta]

Rusty is a large man.

That might influence his perspective.

 

[casa_mugrienta]

Did he send you a link to this article by any chance?

Rusty's New Take on Volume

"If you are getting a custom, trust your shaper’s judgment." "Trust your shaper's judgement."

rustysurfboards.com

Rusty is a large man.

That might influence his perspectives.

I agree volume is just a number.

But if we're talking HPSBs 1/2 liter on one board is not the same as 1/2 liter on another. At least for being on the lower end of the average weight/height.

I have had boards that would be considered "undervolume" that are great paddlers and superior wave catchers.
I have had boards that were 1/2 liter more than what I usually ride that felt like boats to the point it made it impossible to set up deep because they were too corky.

 

[sdsrfr]

to be fair to Rusty, the discussion was regarding a stepup 3-5” from my HPSB, and asked if of all other things different from my DD if I really thought I would notice 0.5L in DOH surf and strong currents.

based on my old boards with Rusty he has no issue understanding performance rails. had an OTR happy shovel at 2.56” thick but rails matching my 2.28” thick short boards.

 

[sdsrfr]

I have had boards that would be considered "undervolume" that are great paddlers and superior wave catchers.
I have had boards that were 1/2 liter more than what I usually ride that felt like boats to the point it made it impossible to set up deep because they were too corky.

my least volumed board (GX) is my best paddler for DD size waves. I’ve totally given up on the notion of adding volume based on shrinking wave size for pointy nosed boards.

 

[Mr J]

Rusty is a large man.

That might influence his perspectives.

I agree volume is just a number.

But if we're talking HPSBs 1/2 liter on one board is not the same as 1/2 liter on another. At least for being on the lower end of the average weight/height.

I have had boards that would be considered "undervolume" that are great paddlers and superior wave catchers.
I have had boards that were 1/2 liter more than what I usually ride that felt like boats to the point it made it impossible to set up deep because they were too corky.

I knew very little about Rusty before listening to the series and he does quote his height and weight a few times, I've forgotten the exact values, but yeah he is a big bloke and from the way he talks about overseas trips and how quads go it is clear that he does base some of his perspectives on personal experience. He is also framing some of his answers to low intermediates.
We mustn't forget that he does have pros riding for him and particularly nowadays they aren't going to tolerate anything they consider as unnecessary volume.

 

[casa_mugrienta]

It's worth noting all of his pros except one are Aussies.

Downright weird IMO. It seems a lot of the team guys move on pretty quickly.

After going to his warehouse a few times it's noticeable most of his shapes have a certain flavor to them that is rather different than most modern HPSBs.

 

[MathDebater]

I definitely agree with all that. You do see quite a bit of his boards around town but they don't really do it for me. I think the BB is the only one that has really looked good to me.

 

[Mr J]

Casa, I haven't been paying close attention, interesting point, it will be interesting to see how Wade Carmichael goes. I've really enjoyed his series because of the level of technical detail he is prepared to hand out - other high profile shapers are not prepared to do that. When I heard him give fin distances from rail and toe in from nose range I haven't been so exited since since back in the 80s when Surfer mag published the fin distances from tail of a selection of the top world tour.

I also find myself agreeing with his design principles e.g step up boards should feature increasing amount of convex (eg. V) as wave size goes up. There is nothing he says that doesn't make sense or comes across as marketing bullshit. There are of course some things I am not sure of, some things I have no experience of e.g guns for Hawaii, deep channels and I don't share his enthusiasm for quads or flat deck boards. He said everybody should own a flat deck board at least once. Well I have, my flat deck board was the only tri fin I built myself that I was completely happy with, but I put that down to good proportions and nailing the fin positions. However, it wouldn't be magic by my standards of today - dead flat bottom because this was in the days before concaves and its the only board that I buckled - they do of course flex more.

 

[need 4 speed]

@Mr J
I'm at 10+ , but I mess around tweaking files quite a bit when I'm sitting around watching tv, if nothing else to keep my hand in shape3d. Appreciate the kind words .Early on I tried to hold a specific volume number and found that with other variables (width/length being the most important) if I didn't let the volume come up, the only way to hit the number was reduce thickness causing very knife-y rail=unforgiving or bog. Volume: I like to check out boards, there are some boards I look at in surf shops and think "these volume number are out of whack from files and volume numbers I see coming off the machine" making me think there may be some fudging based on perception and marketability. someone like GWS would probably know if this really goes on or just my misinterpretation

 

[Mr J]

n4s, Rusty had some interesting things to say about rails. He aims for rail apex height of between 0.65 inches and 0.7 inches and he reckons that compared to other shapers he is tending towards the low apex side. He reckons that some other shapers are using numbers such as 0.8 and feels they won't respond so quickly - longer to set (bury) and longer to release back to the surface. I assumed that the method I have been using to obtain apex which involves subtracting the negative (i.e adding) vertical axis bottom edge control point from the rail perimeter control point vertical axis was because I had a basic version of the software which didn't do the calculation for me, but that is how Rusty does it.

I got my numbers by measuring Dave Verral's awesome Garden Variety HPSB. I was using millimetres, because it was easy to measure with a right angle ruler, but I think now I have a reference I will use inches to decimal point. My latest comes in at 0.59 mm. Low, but it is a small board.

Regarding volume accuracy I think the software is accurate, because I have owned/own similar shapes from Chilli, my local regional custom, Dave Verrall and my own - all with similar volume numbers and they feel in the same ballpark. Rusty said there is "probably" up to 5% inaccuracy in the cutting process. It would take a immersion in a water tank to determine that.

 

[Mr J]

I definitely agree with all that. You do see quite a bit of his boards around town but they don't really do it for me. I think the BB is the only one that has really looked good to me.

MathDebater and Casa, there is how a board looks and there is how a board works. The board that is the most aesthetically pleasing isn't necessarily the one that works the best. Rusty is particularly happy with the success of the Blackbird, he says that is the board that gets repeat orders for replacements and second step up in different length.

How about his SD model, either of you rode that? A HPSB aimed at southern california conditions.

 

[Aruka]

MathDebater and Casa, there is how a board looks and there is how a board works. The board that is the most aesthetically pleasing isn't necessarily the one that works the best. Rusty is particularly happy with the success of the Blackbird, he says that is the board that gets repeat orders for replacements and second step up in different length.

How about his SD model, either of you rode that? A HPSB aimed at southern california conditions.

I haven't ridden the SD but I recall some pretty positive comments on here about it. The Shiv I think has the same rocker as the SD (I could be wrong) and I quite like it. With it's flat deck and wider nose it's certainly a board that looks a bit different from other "normal" boards but it doesn't feel weird at all.

 

[Mr J]

Aruka, yeah that's the sort of thing I meant. A lot of a boards aesthetics comes from how the deck curves are blended into the rails and shapers have different styles. The way those curves are blended is not going to make or break a boards performance.

The rail apex height, the rail thickness about 1" in from rail perimeter. The amount of tuck and rocker. These are the things that matter.