Reaction to Epoxy Repair Article

GWS

Duke status
Jan 11, 2002
42,605
22
0
done
First off, I doubt that Parmenter got that stuff from Grubby. You have 0 evidence of that. Secondly, what we have now is Parmenter and GL disagreeing. GL has sunk his whole identity into epoxy at this point, it would be expecting a bit much for him to give an unbiased view of it don’t you think? He’d be cutting his own throat. It would be along the same lines as Grubby telling us about the shortcomings of Poly and the superiority of epoxy. It’s not going to happen. Three, you can add John Bradurry to the list of people that were proponents of epoxy that have now died young. Four, like I have said, over and over again on epoxy boards I have observed delamination problems. That’s just the way it is. There has been an epoxy following in my area for a number of years now, so I have been able to see how the boards wear. They are strong, but like I said, I have seen a LOT of delams. I’d lay odds that right now I can walk into a certain surf shop in Santa Barbara and pull an epoxy board out of the used board rack and find deck delams. That seems to be the thing to do, because they still look good. They start to delam, you put the board on the consignment rack and let someone else deal with it. Quick. No thanks. Five, I don’t like the way they feel. Personal preference. I can surf them fine, but from the riders point of view, IMO, they feel funny. Add it all up and for me personally, I’ll give them a pass for now. But I really have no problems with custom epoxy boards. SurfTech, yes. Custom epoxy, not at all. You like it, ride it. That’s great. For the above stated reasons, I’ll pass. Personal preference.

But, I don’t buy the concept of epoxy as some kind of save-the-world ultra-groovy tree-hugger-friendly organic surfboard covering that you can ingest like organic rice either.

An online debate between Parmenter and GL WOULD be interesting. Epic even.
 

pickles

Miki Dora status
Aug 18, 2003
5,025
0
0
Ventura, CA
I picked up a massively delammed 6'7" Clyde Beatty epoxy years ago for $75. Perfect for me at the time as an experiment with a smaller board. I cracked a fin off, fixed it with 5 minute epoxy from OSH and got some good waves on it. There were 8" and 10" diameter delams on the deck, but it was still plenty strong. Thats the only board I've had that didn't have foot dents on the deck or glass seperation at the stringer.

XTR from javier is supposed to fix the delam problem ... I'll know in a half a year, I've got one on order.
 

TRI FINS ARE DANGEROUS

Tom Curren status
Jan 10, 2002
13,156
0
0
Pavement, CA USA
www.surfysurfy.net
Growing up in a surfboard factory I've ridden all kinds of stuff. Epoxy, carbon fibers, blends of both, all kinds of experimental resins and cloths, vacuum bagged boards, you name it. Crazy stringers, no stringers, blah blah blah.
My Dad spent thousands out of his own pocket experimenting with all kinds of materials only to read in magazines that California glass shops "hold back" materials like it's some kind of conspiracy.
If you like to ride epoxies, go for it. If you like to work with epoxy, go for it. But please don't tell the groms that your board will save the earth. It's not hemp.

I don't come on this forum to bag on epoxy or anything else. I like the freedom of choice. Surfer Mag created this open forum for us to interact. I will continue to use this forum to respond to what I view as misinformation in the print mag.

When a customer comes into the shop and inquires about epoxy I don't try to change his/her mind, I happily give him/her the phone number of shops that do epoxy.
 

craigj532

Kelly Slater status
Nov 9, 2002
9,286
325
83
point blanks?
Point Blanks is in Ventura, not SB.

I have a decent idea who GWS is talking about. Never cared much for the boards, and I've heard some bad things about the way they treat their glassers, if I'm thinking of the same manufacturer.

I've toyed with the idea of buying an XTR epoxy, but I really like the poly boards I'm riding now. I don't really care that they don't last forever. I tend to not be that ding prone, anyway. The dings I do get probably would happen regardless of how the board was made. Therefore, I can't really see spending $100 more for an epoxy board.

If epoxy resin is so safe and harmless, I dare anyone on this board to drink a shot glass full of it. It's an f-ed up, nasty, petrochemical, just like poly. It hardly represents an environmental revolution. I think what people get charged up about is that irresponsible publications and manufacturers try to paint it as such.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/socrazy.gif" alt="" />
 

pickles

Miki Dora status
Aug 18, 2003
5,025
0
0
Ventura, CA
Every board I've had has died either directly or indirectly from deck crush, which is why I've always wanted to get into epoxy. Now that my shaper is willing to work in XTR I'm excited to try it. I've had shapers simply tell me "no" when I asked about epoxy, since they'd either had skin problems, or known someone who had. My understanding was that the foam that you have to use is really irritiating.

The delams, the skin irritation, and the difficulty of mixing up the resin (its a huge pain to get 2-part fully mixed without introducing TONS of air) are all problems, but epoxy does seem to have some properties that can be useful in building boards, if someone can find ways to eliminate or mitigate the problems ...

The issue of imports and popouts is totally different, and my feelings on THAT are well known <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cussing.gif" alt="" />

EDIT: with the resin mixing comment I'm referring to home ding fixing ... I don't know $hit about full on glassing.
 
Mar 15, 2004
18
0
0
First off, I doubt that Parmenter got that stuff from Grubby. You have 0 evidence of that. Secondly, what we have now is Parmenter and GL disagreeing. GL has sunk his whole identity into epoxy at this point, it would be expecting a bit much for him to give an unbiased view of it don’t you think? He’d be cutting his own throat. It would be along the same lines as Grubby telling us about the shortcomings of Poly and the superiority of epoxy. It’s not going to happen. Three, you can add John Bradurry to the list of people that were proponents of epoxy that have now died young. Four, like I have said, over and over again on epoxy boards I have observed delamination problems. That’s just the way it is. There has been an epoxy following in my area for a number of years now, so I have been able to see how the boards wear. They are strong, but like I said, I have seen a LOT of delams. I’d lay odds that right now I can walk into a certain surf shop in Santa Barbara and pull an epoxy board out of the used board rack and find deck delams. That seems to be the thing to do, because they still look good. They start to delam, you put the board on the consignment rack and let someone else deal with it. Quick. No thanks. Five, I don’t like the way they feel. Personal preference. I can surf them fine, but from the riders point of view, IMO, they feel funny. Add it all up and for me personally, I’ll give them a pass for now. But I really have no problems with custom epoxy boards. SurfTech, yes. Custom epoxy, not at all. You like it, ride it. That’s great. For the above stated reasons, I’ll pass. Personal preference.

But, I don’t buy the concept of epoxy as some kind of save-the-world ultra-groovy tree-hugger-friendly organic surfboard covering that you can ingest like organic rice either.

An online debate between Parmenter and GL WOULD be interesting. Epic even.

You dont think Parmenter has an adgenda also?
I can see that Parmenter and Greg L disagree here but Greg has put in decades of work into formualting his own epoxy resins made specifically for surfboards and is very knowledgeable in the chemical properties of resins. Hes done the tests of poly vs.epoxy has Parmenter done any of this? The question is how much does Parmenter really know? Or is he taking old or secondhand or incorrect information as his knowledge base? Again take a look at your MSDS for poly and its associated chemicals then take a look at the MSDS for epoxy.

As far as John Bradurry do you have any information that ties his death to epoxy? I have not heard or read any such information myself. I could point to lots of poly laminators that died or are in poor health.

I have NEVER claimed that epoxy is 100% tree hugger approved or that you could drink it or save the rainforests with it. It does have some superior mechanical properties and is accepted as the superior resin in every industry except surfboards.

I am aware of delam problems in some boards but as i understand it its the foam not the resin. It would be interesting to find out what type of foam was used in these delamed surfboards. I would also like to point out that epoxy construction is widely accepted on the east coast and they dont seem to have a problem.
 

dk

Kelly Slater status
Sep 14, 2003
9,554
81
48
Leucadia
Visit site
im still laughing about whoever asked tfad what the "board" was (not plural <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) he has ridden was. i mean come on guys, he lives in a glass shop.


i think the reason he likes poly so much is because hes addicted to the fumes <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />



me need for poly..... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

epoxy and poly both got there places. i think some longboards are better with epoxy. some arent because they are to light. not many people like a log that is under 10 lbs. unless ur doign the new hardcore new age airing on logs. dont get me started on "performance logging" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hah.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/monkey.gif" alt="" />


dk
 

GWS

Duke status
Jan 11, 2002
42,605
22
0
done
First off, I doubt that Parmenter got that stuff from Grubby. You have 0 evidence of that. Secondly, what we have now is Parmenter and GL disagreeing. GL has sunk his whole identity into epoxy at this point, it would be expecting a bit much for him to give an unbiased view of it don’t you think? He’d be cutting his own throat. It would be along the same lines as Grubby telling us about the shortcomings of Poly and the superiority of epoxy. It’s not going to happen. Three, you can add John Bradurry to the list of people that were proponents of epoxy that have now died young. Four, like I have said, over and over again on epoxy boards I have observed delamination problems. That’s just the way it is. There has been an epoxy following in my area for a number of years now, so I have been able to see how the boards wear. They are strong, but like I said, I have seen a LOT of delams. I’d lay odds that right now I can walk into a certain surf shop in Santa Barbara and pull an epoxy board out of the used board rack and find deck delams. That seems to be the thing to do, because they still look good. They start to delam, you put the board on the consignment rack and let someone else deal with it. Quick. No thanks. Five, I don’t like the way they feel. Personal preference. I can surf them fine, but from the riders point of view, IMO, they feel funny. Add it all up and for me personally, I’ll give them a pass for now. But I really have no problems with custom epoxy boards. SurfTech, yes. Custom epoxy, not at all. You like it, ride it. That’s great. For the above stated reasons, I’ll pass. Personal preference.

But, I don’t buy the concept of epoxy as some kind of save-the-world ultra-groovy tree-hugger-friendly organic surfboard covering that you can ingest like organic rice either.

An online debate between Parmenter and GL WOULD be interesting. Epic even.

You dont think Parmenter has an adgenda also?
I can see that Parmenter and Greg L disagree here but Greg has put in decades of work into formualting his own epoxy resins made specifically for surfboards and is very knowledgeable in the chemical properties of resins. Hes done the tests of poly vs.epoxy has Parmenter done any of this? The question is how much does Parmenter really know? Or is he taking old or secondhand or incorrect information as his knowledge base? Again take a look at your MSDS for poly and its associated chemicals then take a look at the MSDS for epoxy.

As far as John Bradurry do you have any information that ties his death to epoxy? I have not heard or read any such information myself. I could point to lots of poly laminators that died or are in poor health.

I have NEVER claimed that epoxy is 100% tree hugger approved or that you could drink it or save the rainforests with it. It does have some superior mechanical properties and is accepted as the superior resin in every industry except surfboards.

I am aware of delam problems in some boards but as i understand it its the foam not the resin. It would be interesting to find out what type of foam was used in these delamed surfboards. I would also like to point out that epoxy construction is widely accepted on the east coast and they dont seem to have a problem.

Parmenter has an agenda? I suppose it’s possible, but what would that agenda be? Does he own a glass shop set up to do epoxy? No. Does he blow foam? No. He’s just a shaper. He can shape either type of foam I’m sure. I can see where he could be said to have an agenda regarding SurfTech popouts, but what agenda could he have re custom epoxy boards? I can’t think of one.

How much does GL know vs. how much does Parmenter know? I have no idea who’s going to win there. I suspect you don’t either, you’re just picking a side. I have a lot of respect for both of them, but like a lot of things, you can have intelligent well-informed people that have formed diametrically opposed opinions.

Bradbury is just another guy in the surfboard industry that died of cancer rather young. Did epoxy cause it? I have no idea nor do you. You’ll probably have to wait another 20 years and see if you have significant clusters of medical problems associated with epoxy.

And regarding the delam problem, I couldn’t tell you whether it was the epoxy, or the foam that must be used in conjunction with the epoxy. I only know that it is a problem that I have seen over and over and over again with my own eyes. Whether it was due to shoddy construction, bad foam or something inherent to all epoxy boards, I cannot say. It’s simply a firsthand observation.

And although I have a lot of friends who make their living making surfboards, I do not. Certainly I have made a number of them on an amateur level, but primarily, I just ride them. I leave the chemistry and the determination of toxicity levels to people that are actually involved making their living manufacturing surfboards. I’m just a surfer.
 
Mar 15, 2004
18
0
0
First off, I doubt that Parmenter got that stuff from Grubby. You have 0 evidence of that. Secondly, what we have now is Parmenter and GL disagreeing. GL has sunk his whole identity into epoxy at this point, it would be expecting a bit much for him to give an unbiased view of it don’t you think? He’d be cutting his own throat. It would be along the same lines as Grubby telling us about the shortcomings of Poly and the superiority of epoxy. It’s not going to happen. Three, you can add John Bradurry to the list of people that were proponents of epoxy that have now died young. Four, like I have said, over and over again on epoxy boards I have observed delamination problems. That’s just the way it is. There has been an epoxy following in my area for a number of years now, so I have been able to see how the boards wear. They are strong, but like I said, I have seen a LOT of delams. I’d lay odds that right now I can walk into a certain surf shop in Santa Barbara and pull an epoxy board out of the used board rack and find deck delams. That seems to be the thing to do, because they still look good. They start to delam, you put the board on the consignment rack and let someone else deal with it. Quick. No thanks. Five, I don’t like the way they feel. Personal preference. I can surf them fine, but from the riders point of view, IMO, they feel funny. Add it all up and for me personally, I’ll give them a pass for now. But I really have no problems with custom epoxy boards. SurfTech, yes. Custom epoxy, not at all. You like it, ride it. That’s great. For the above stated reasons, I’ll pass. Personal preference.

But, I don’t buy the concept of epoxy as some kind of save-the-world ultra-groovy tree-hugger-friendly organic surfboard covering that you can ingest like organic rice either.

An online debate between Parmenter and GL WOULD be interesting. Epic even.

You dont think Parmenter has an adgenda also?
I can see that Parmenter and Greg L disagree here but Greg has put in decades of work into formualting his own epoxy resins made specifically for surfboards and is very knowledgeable in the chemical properties of resins. Hes done the tests of poly vs.epoxy has Parmenter done any of this? The question is how much does Parmenter really know? Or is he taking old or secondhand or incorrect information as his knowledge base? Again take a look at your MSDS for poly and its associated chemicals then take a look at the MSDS for epoxy.

As far as John Bradurry do you have any information that ties his death to epoxy? I have not heard or read any such information myself. I could point to lots of poly laminators that died or are in poor health.

I have NEVER claimed that epoxy is 100% tree hugger approved or that you could drink it or save the rainforests with it. It does have some superior mechanical properties and is accepted as the superior resin in every industry except surfboards.

I am aware of delam problems in some boards but as i understand it its the foam not the resin. It would be interesting to find out what type of foam was used in these delamed surfboards. I would also like to point out that epoxy construction is widely accepted on the east coast and they dont seem to have a problem.

Parmenter has an agenda? I suppose it’s possible, but what would that agenda be? Does he own a glass shop set up to do epoxy? No. Does he blow foam? No. He’s just a shaper. He can shape either type of foam I’m sure. I can see where he could be said to have an agenda regarding SurfTech popouts, but what agenda could he have re custom epoxy boards? I can’t think of one.

How much does GL know vs. how much does Parmenter know? I have no idea who’s going to win there. I suspect you don’t either, you’re just picking a side. I have a lot of respect for both of them, but like a lot of things, you can have intelligent well-informed people that have formed diametrically opposed opinions.

Bradbury is just another guy in the surfboard industry that died of cancer rather young. Did epoxy cause it? I have no idea nor do you. You’ll probably have to wait another 20 years and see if you have significant clusters of medical problems associated with epoxy.

And regarding the delam problem, I couldn’t tell you whether it was the epoxy, or the foam that must be used in conjunction with the epoxy. I only know that it is a problem that I have seen over and over and over again with my own eyes. Whether it was due to shoddy construction, bad foam or something inherent to all epoxy boards, I cannot say. It’s simply a firsthand observation.

And although I have a lot of friends who make their living making surfboards, I do not. Certainly I have made a number of them on an amateur level, but primarily, I just ride them. I leave the chemistry and the determination of toxicity levels to people that are actually involved making their living manufacturing surfboards. I’m just a surfer.
I have talked to Parmenter, he lives on the West side of Oahu in Rells former house and he is friends with several members of my family that live on the west side. I concede that i dont know whats on Parmenters mind and can only speculate on my initial impressions on the guy. He never showed me his resume so i have no idea what his credentials are other than he can shape. I have never actually met Greg but i have spoken with him on the phone and he knows his stuff. I mean you dont fall off the turnip truck one day a decide im going to formulate my own resin today...you gotta know what your doing first.
Anyway its a good debate guys. thanks.
 

pinliner

Nep status
Mar 21, 2002
796
0
0
leucadia
I hate these religious debates. I was a Epoxyatarian for awhile back in the 80's due to the evangelical influence of a windsurfing guru went thru lots of money supporting that sect. Now I'm an orthodox Polyesterite also attending the church of Bonzer and its way more fun.
 

blakestah

Phil Edwards status
Sep 10, 2002
6,139
0
0
I've read countless posts from GL detailing material properties of epoxies vs polyester vs vinylester for different types of glass, etc, and also about common problems lamming with epoxy, and how these material properties impacted and altered the way he has built boards over the years.

When you see his writings, you definitely get the impression that this is someone who has looked long and hard at the problem of surfboard resins, made a better product, encountered dozens of issues along the way, dealt with it, and now is confident his product is better, and has scores of happy glassers and "high-end amateur" builders that are happy as pigs in s h i t with his resins. I don't think I've ever seen anyone that was down on his resins. I am quite sure he would smoke Parmenter in a debate on these issues and quite possibly convert him.

It is really difficult to argue with. Less vapor problems, stronger, lighter. And the polyU/epoxy boards I've ridden are so similar in ride quality to polyU/polyester boards it's tough to think anyone would care. Sandwich boards DO ride differently, no contest there.

And you guys should really stop slamming on Clyde without giving him an opportunity to speak his peace. We don't see his boards on used racks up here much, and we also don't see a predominance of epoxy/polyU delams.

Epoxy can be misused just like polyester resin, but used properly, there are a LOT of arguments and evidence it makes a better board.
 

dk

Kelly Slater status
Sep 14, 2003
9,554
81
48
Leucadia
Visit site
i think on my next board ill have to trys gregs stuff. i was gonna, but didnt have time. but on my next board i will. maybe ill use it on my longboard. can u put ordinary pigment in epoxy?

pinliner goes to my kinda church <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

dk
 

jeff wells

OTF status
Mar 2, 2003
348
0
0
sea
Visit site
dk, I asked him what kind of board he rode. It's like asking about a longboard, shortboard, fish, what kind. If you were to ask me about the last longboard I rode, I could give you detailed infomation about it. Just wondering about what kind of board.
 

highline rider

Miki Dora status
Jan 31, 2003
4,241
0
0
Orange County
would poly boards be so prone to breakage if the majority were not glassed 4oz all around? seems epoxy would have its place in small light boosting air machines, but i think most boards could use a little more glass.
 

blakestah

Phil Edwards status
Sep 10, 2002
6,139
0
0
I don't think anyone mentioned Clyde but you.
I picked up a massively delammed 6'7" Clyde Beatty epoxy years ago
Point Blanks is in Ventura, not SB.

I have a decent idea who GWS is talking about.
So what I'm wondering is, is the boards that you've seen built in your area of Ventura?
Close. Santa Barbara. If you want me to get closer than that, pm me and I'll tell you. I have number of friends that tried them and felt they were more ding resistant. But they all delamed badly.
Epoxy board manufacturer. Santa Barbara.

btw, pickles named Clyde. But there is one name that rises far above others when you mention epoxy resin boards and Santa Barbara.
 

GWS

Duke status
Jan 11, 2002
42,605
22
0
done
The story Pickles told was completely independent of anything I said. He was relating something that he had observed on a personal level with epoxy surfboards. Your attempt to link my words to his in your post above is disingenuous at best and if you had an ounce of integrity you would edit it. You want to come after me, that’s fine, but don’t lump my words in with quotes from 3 other people in your effort to do so.

I named NO ONE. After repeated requests to name names, I still named NO ONE. I was trying to keep the discussion as clean as possible.

You pretty much blew that out of the water. Congratulations.
 

hackeysaky

Miki Dora status
Dec 19, 2002
4,443
208
63
NJ
I am not saying Epoxy is THE way, but is definitely A VERY VALID WAY to go.

The whole claim that the epoxy boards ride "funny" (paraphrasing, not an actual quote) is suspect IMO. They may ride differently, but what makes the standard PU boards the "correct" way, and epoxies the "funny" way? It is all a matter of what you are used to, what adjustments/acclimation you are willing to make, and just how anal-retentive you are about your boards. If you choose an epoxy board that is indeed stiffer than a PU (in this case I am talking more about hand-shaped 2lb EPS foams, not as much the XPS foams), rocker (once again, IMO) is more critical than in a PU board. A PU will flex a little more through turns than an EPS epoxy shaped and glassed the same way, which will help make up for inefficiencies in the rocker and interactions of other variables- unless you overglass a PU board, which makes it stiffer and less lively/interactive with the rider's applications of pressure and weighting/unweighting- sound like a familiar complaint?

Rather than epoxy materials being the problem, it could be that the synthesis of these variables just needs to be more "on" in epoxy boards, while PU boards have a built-in fudge-factor (?)

I can say wholeheartedly, my favorite board I have ever owned was a Rainbow (FL shape) epoxy 6’6” shortboard. Hands down. Rode waist high to DOH like a champ. Everything about the board was just “on”. While all my PU boards have gone thru an obvious "deadening" as they aged, that board sang like a diva for 5 years (ridden a whole lot) until the day I snapped her getting clobbered by a closeout in +2x overhead Playa Hermosa. Very sad day for me.

Yes, I had a few delam problems with these (Rainbow) boards, but this was indeed back in the day when the epoxy-users were still figuring things out AND I was young and dumb and left them in the sun on accident (100 degree days lifeguarding on the beach- put them in the shade in the AM and by the PM they are in direct sunlight if I forget to move them).

A few years ago I had the pleasure of visiting Greg Loehr's shop. I have seen his boards and boards shaped by people under his direct and indirect guidance, ridden some of his boards, and talked with him about his philosophy, approach, and methods and have been nothing but impressed and encouraged. I have seen some of his boards over 7 years old that were not necessarily taken care of, and they are still 1) solid and 2) no delams whatsoever.

Greg claims that they have solved most, if not all, of the delam issues of the past for his EPS boards. The boards I have seen suggest this is true. Additionally, if the claim (foremost by Javier/Epoxy Pro) that the delam problem has been solved for Extruded foam (or at least alleviated to the point that it is equal to standard PU, because let's face it, PU boards will and do delam- they are not perfect), why not reserve the passing of judgement until one tries one out? I just don't get how someone can pass judgement in the cook-off without sampling the food.

The Parmenter quote of "These “extruded” foams are indeed far more watertight. What they fail to mention is that in order for these foams to achieve this they have had to mimic properties of a regular polyurethane Clark Foam blank" is bullsheet. If Clark foam was mimicked, why do the extruded foams not absorb water while the Clark foams soak it in and get all mushy? This is just one example of why I cannot stand Parmenter's arm waving, the sky-is-falling propaganda.

As far as how “green” epoxy boards are, they are not the holy grail. Polystyrene is not organic, so of course it is not environmentally good or neutral; I doubt if Clark (et al) foams are either. "Epoxy" resins come in a myriad of chemistries, and some are better than others. I do believe that GL's Resin Research epoxy is in the "better" category. It is not drinking water, but is not cyanide either. Loehr's shop had a sweet smell to it, but I did not suffer any dizziness or apparent ill effects after standing in there and chatting it up for 2 hours with a few boards curing on the racks a few feet away (garage door was open, but the wind was absolutely dead calm). You can smear dogsh*t on your hands and be none the worse for wear, but if you drink/eat it you are likely going to suffer some ill effects. I'm not going to go drink a glass of epoxy either, that is for sure, but I'd rather be locked in a small room with a curing RR board than a board glassed with standard methods.

Finally, I don’t give a damn as to whether the board under my feet is PU or Epoxy, as long as it rides well, does what I want it to do, and satisfies my cravings. I therefore do and will continue riding boards of both chemistries. And I’ll be smiling, and that is all that matters in my book.