Pension to wife to power of attorney question? Odd...I know

ElOgro · Feb 19, 2024

The power of attorney lists what the Tia Abuela can do. If it isn’t on the document, they can’t do it. I had full poa for my mom, my sister had limited. Find @ringer and pizza/beer him.

ReForest · Feb 19, 2024

20W-50 and blood said:
For you legal beagles...or experienced regals...

Situation (to my understanding): Husband kicks the bucket. Wife receives his pension payments into an account. Wife is extremely aged...absolute BONKERS gone in the head (could easily be diagnosed/assessed as such)...and in the full time extreme care of an AGED (great?) niece. Aged great niece has power of attorney. Aged great niece is too old to provide care/housing. Aged great niece w/power of attorney cannot access the great aunt's funds (from deceased husband), despite power of attorney. Funds would be ONLY used towards (and wouldnt cover it all) live-in care for the great aunt. Is there any way a lawyer/judge could get some kind of ruling going to where the pension funds are released for live-in care? Receipts/proof of all funds being directed towards care wouldn't be a problem to provide.

I originally thought someone w/power of attorney could access it...but apparently not.

The easy way: Find out what kind of power of attorney would satisfy the bank to allow them to let Aged Great Niece ("AGN") access the funds. I'm guessing the bank is the one telling AGN that she cannot access the funds, correct?

The hard way: Contact a probate attorney (that handles conservatorships as well) and file something with the probate court that would allow AGN to access the funds. Our firm has zero experience with probate but I am told their fees are set per statute, so it's really about finding a good attorney in this area.

That would be my suggestion. Maybe there is a probate attorney lurking on here that can provide a more useful and meaningful response.

Does the wife have a living trust?

ReForest · Feb 19, 2024

20W-50 and blood said:
no on the living tust situation. wil research the power of attorney "kind" ( i didnt even know there were different elvels/degrees). gracias for the direction on the probate attorney. situation is dire.

No problem. The bank has given my Mom and Sister a hard time on my grandmothers power of attorney so I know they require specific language (depending on the banker/manager) sometimes. My Mother found someone that would listen and they told her exactly what kind of language the POA had to have in order to access my grandmothers money.

Mr Doof · Feb 19, 2024

There may be an end-around here.....

Short version is: Does Great Niece have (legal) access to the bank account that the pension feeds to? (just curious, mailed check or electronic deposit?)

If so, pension feeds bank account, niece with access to account directs fund to care provider (be nice if bank account is a joint account with niece's name on it), and that is that. Mildly gray situation here, doubtful anyone would look hard if there are no shenanigans. But if someone in the family has a beef, yeah, gray goes black and white pretty quick and that generally ends poorly for everyone.

Longer version builds upon type of Power of Attorney, how pension is set up, who runs the pension, bank policy, financial law of state this is occurring in, etc.

I advise the person with the POA (and yourself) to talk to pension and bank people to find out exactly what they needed for your situation. The bank policies do not always have backing by the law. Sometimes all that is needed is to ID yourself, present the notarized POA to the bank manager, sign some of the banks forms that then allows the bank to set aside their policies, get added to the account receiving the pension, and then this account can write checks that can be signed by the POA holder and not have any grey area.

Autoprax · Feb 20, 2024

Just cash the checks pretending you are the dead person.

Run up the credit cards.

You might have to dress up as the aged niece.

Are you still fat?

2surf · Feb 20, 2024

20W-50 and blood said:
For you legal beagles...or experienced regals...

Situation (to my understanding): Husband kicks the bucket. Wife receives his pension payments into an account. Wife is extremely aged...absolute BONKERS gone in the head (could easily be diagnosed/assessed as such)...and in the full time extreme care of an AGED (great?) niece. Aged great niece has power of attorney. Aged great niece is too old to provide care/housing. Aged great niece w/power of attorney cannot access the great aunt's funds (from deceased husband), despite power of attorney. Funds would be ONLY used towards (and wouldnt cover it all) live-in care for the great aunt. Is there any way a lawyer/judge could get some kind of ruling going to where the pension funds are released for live-in care? Receipts/proof of all funds being directed towards care wouldn't be a problem to provide.

I originally thought someone w/power of attorney could access it...but apparently not.

Question, what's in it for you?

What needs to happen is the matter should be take to the county court where a Judge would appoint an Elisor to make the legal decisions.

Pico · Feb 20, 2024

Autoprax said:
Just cash the checks pretending you are the dead person.

Run up the credit cards.

You might have to dress up as the aged niece.

Are you still fat?

Def run up the cards

littlewave · Feb 20, 2024

You (they) need to consult an actual attorney. Lots of well meaning in here, but, remember it’s the erbb, and so far you’re getting what you pay for…

edit: if hiring an attorney REALLY isn’t an option you could start here:

Helping a person with an impairment or disability | California Courts | Self Help Guide

Help for someone with an impairment or disability There's a range of options to help someone Everyone needs help sometimes. Some people, including people with disabilities or impairments, may need more help than others. Sometimes a person has trouble

selfhelp.courts.ca.gov

PJ · Feb 20, 2024

My wife and I just did this this year. The lawyer was the key. We live in NY - wife's uncle died in Texas leaving behind her 84 year old blood relative aunt who has manic depression and cannot manage her own affairs. Wife flies to Texas, finds copies of wills, trust, bank accounts, VA pension, social Security etc. etc.. One thing - don't tell the government or any bank that someone died until you possess a death certificate which can take 60 days to get. My wife told social security who we think told the bank who started freezing things. You can't get control of anything without a death certificate.

The lawyer emailed me all the power of attorney stuff - there were 3 or 4 documents to be signed, one of which made my wife the trustee of the trust. The power of attorney should be durable so it stays in force after someone dies and should let you make hospital decisions also. The power of attorney had about 8 or 10 powers to be selectively initialed by the aunt - there was also a box to give all the powers including sale of real estate (which was also a trust power I think) so we went with the all powers choice. I got that stuff all printed at a Staples in Texas and told my wife to take the aunt to a showroom desk in Staples to do the signing. Much easier to get all the control if she has not been declared unfit. The lawyer interviewed my wife over Zoom then took all that to court to be approved by a judge. Once approved the lawyer got my wife "Letters Testamentary" - 10 originals - its just one page but tells banks, etc. that you have the powers.

My wife took her aunt to our house in NY. All done remote from NY - bank accounts and checks titles changed to "XXX Survivor's trust My Wife, trustee". Had a real estate agent sell the house. Kept all the same accounts and kept them in Texas with a mailing address in NY. Texas lawyer, Texas judge, Texas accounts. Don't want to have any problems with different state laws if we moved anything. Kept the uncles investment strategy the same - that's what he wanted to begin with - why change it. My wife flew to the Philippines with her, got her a leased car and really nice 3 bedroom rental house. Moved a couple of relatives in to be caretakers - CCTV with audio in all but 2 bedrooms (yeah you really need that). My wife came back home after a month. Its going very well but you need 4 or 5 or 6 people around for someone with depression who needs 24 hour care - no one should have to deal with that for more than 8 hours - its a tough job. She's able to see things on CCTV that the caretakers don't see themselves because they are so close to it and help them to get it better.

But control - it's the lawyer 100% - only charged $3200 or so to do all that - he knew exactly what to do.

PJ · Feb 20, 2024

My first questions to the lawyer were all basically what is our liability if something goes wrong. He said that a trustee would have to be guilty of gross negligence to get in any kind of trouble, that he hoped she would agree to be the trustee and that it is a paid position and $100 per hour for trust administration would be reasonable. The trustee has to make a yearly report of expenses, etc. but does not have to give the report to anyone, at least in Texas. Also I now understand why wills are kept secret sometimes. If the will is known the family may start counting its money and looking at every expense that they can physically see around the aunts house as someone spending their money. So secret is good, its cuts down on the static.

It has been a lot of work for her. Since April about 6 weeks away from home working the whole time plus 6 full 40 hour weeks when she stayed with us and say 2 hours a day for 6 months. A lot of waiting on hold for the government stuff, social security and the VA. When her uncle asked her to be executer in 1995 we pictured signing some papers at the will reading like on TV. The reality is - Whoa! - it's a lot!

Sharky · Feb 20, 2024

Sorry you are going through this. I had full power of attorney for my father. Some of the banks are pricks re this stuff. Chase comes to mind. My father was lucid when I went at it with them. They didn't make it easy. I managed to ram it down their greedy throats however. You might look at moving the money at some point. Go to say Merrill Lynch who banks with Bank of America. They're specialists at ripping money away from other, reluctant financial institutions. The auto deposit of the pension plus social security would have to be dealt with. Which can be a pain in the ass to deal with.

Dealing with this stage of life is difficult. Things get complicated.

PJ · Feb 20, 2024

Sharky said:
Sorry you are going through this. I had full power of attorney for my father. Some of the banks are pricks re this stuff. Chase comes to mind. My father was lucid when I went at it with them. They didn't make it easy. I managed to ram it down their greedy throats however. You might look at moving the money at some point. Go to say Merrill Lynch who banks with Bank of America. They're specialists at ripping money away from other, reluctant financial institutions. The auto deposit of the pension plus social security would have to be dealt with. Which can be a pain in the ass to deal with.

Dealing with this stage of life is difficult. Things get complicated.

My wife's aunt's accounts were with Merrill Lynch / Bank of America - glad you brought this up - the Merrill guy told my wife to come to him with the death certificate and he would talk to the Bank of NY people because he understood it better than them and could get them to move quickly and correctly. Before they had the checks in her name, since it had taken so long to get the death certificate, then there were problems with how the notary notarized her signature here that delayed things, she was telling them the aunt was out of money and she had to relocate her - the bank girls sent her a check for 20K.

ReForest · Feb 20, 2024

PJ said:
My wife and I just did this this year. The lawyer was the key. We live in NY - wife's uncle died in Texas leaving behind her 84 year old blood relative aunt who has manic depression and cannot manage her own affairs. Wife flies to Texas, finds copies of wills, trust, bank accounts, VA pension, social Security etc. etc.. One thing - don't tell the government or any bank that someone died until you possess a death certificate which can take 60 days to get. My wife told social security who we think told the bank who started freezing things. You can't get control of anything without a death certificate.

The lawyer emailed me all the power of attorney stuff - there were 3 or 4 documents to be signed, one of which made my wife the trustee of the trust. The power of attorney should be durable so it stays in force after someone dies and should let you make hospital decisions also. The power of attorney had about 8 or 10 powers to be selectively initialed by the aunt - there was also a box to give all the powers including sale of real estate (which was also a trust power I think) so we went with the all powers choice. I got that stuff all printed at a Staples in Texas and told my wife to take the aunt to a showroom desk in Staples to do the signing. Much easier to get all the control if she has not been declared unfit. The lawyer interviewed my wife over Zoom then took all that to court to be approved by a judge. Once approved the lawyer got my wife "Letters Testamentary" - 10 originals - its just one page but tells banks, etc. that you have the powers.

My wife took her aunt to our house in NY. All done remote from NY - bank accounts and checks titles changed to "XXX Survivor's trust My Wife, trustee". Had a real estate agent sell the house. Kept all the same accounts and kept them in Texas with a mailing address in NY. Texas lawyer, Texas judge, Texas accounts. Don't want to have any problems with different state laws if we moved anything. Kept the uncles investment strategy the same - that's what he wanted to begin with - why change it. My wife flew to the Philippines with her, got her a leased car and really nice 3 bedroom rental house. Moved a couple of relatives in to be caretakers - CCTV with audio in all but 2 bedrooms (yeah you really need that). My wife came back home after a month. Its going very well but you need 4 or 5 or 6 people around for someone with depression who needs 24 hour care - no one should have to deal with that for more than 8 hours - its a tough job. She's able to see things on CCTV that the caretakers don't see themselves because they are so close to it and help them to get it better.

But control - it's the lawyer 100% - only charged $3200 or so to do all that - he knew exactly what to do.

Big difference is @20W-50 and blood said there is no trust! No trust means you have to go through probate to appoint anyone powers. It appears there is an active POA but it looks like the bank doesn't like something about it. So he either needs to find some nice person at the bank that will work with him and help him... or hire an attorney to file a probate action and get an order appointing someone the powers to do what needs to be done. Totally different situation in my opinion.

Havoc · Feb 20, 2024

ReForest said:
Big difference is @20W-50 and blood said there is no trust! No trust means you have to go through probate to appoint anyone powers. It appears there is an active POA but it looks like the bank doesn't like something about it. So he either needs to find some nice person at the bank that will work with him and help him... or hire an attorney to file a probate action and get an order appointing someone the powers to do what needs to be done. Totally different situation in my opinion.

r u a lawyer?

ReForest · Feb 20, 2024

Havoc said:
r u a lawyer?

No.

Mr Doof · Feb 20, 2024

When we settled our parents' "estates", I found great utility on putting financial matters into a spreadsheet. Where the money is, where it is coming from, where it goes, etc. It was a big benefit to my peace of mind.

Getting things mostly lined up BEFORE the parents became incompetent was a great help....getting the legal stuff while dealing with the grief is sub-optimal.

And like PJ said, tell the bank last (that the account holder is dead)...makes depositing checks/funds much easier (no taking out until the end). When it is time, go in there with death cert, lots of ID, and a POA. Wills don't do much with banks, at least in my experience. Way, way, way easier if the account had a beneficiary listed, better if the account is a joint account, but this has to be set before people die.

But know, if you don't tell SS or the pension entity that a person has died and they keep sending payments, those entities will want their money back when they do find out that the person has died...and they will find out.

For myself, I didn't want any goofy money issues to dog my conscience or taint the memory of my folks who were depending upon us kids at the end, so no running up the credit cards or crap like that. Fun to think for a few seconds, but way better not to do. Plus, much harder to escape this fraud than in the olden days.

Anyway, for 20W-50, if great aunt is getting money to an account in her name and great niece has POA for her, the time has come to get all the paperwork to go to the bank and with the help/accompaniment of a fine fellow such as yourself:

1. Explain the situation to the bank
2. Find out what the banks needs (to allow great niece to direct funds to care providers)
3. Set up account beneficiary

If there is pushback from the bank, this is because they are trying to both keep the funds, prevent fraud, and not get sued. Your job will be appease them, prove that this is not going to happen. The POA (financial) is what they need...and their forms signed.

If all your paperwork, patience and a tranquil demeanor is insufficient to achieve your desires, then start looking for legal aid.

The pension people don't need to be involved until the great aunt dies (if she is already receiving the funds).

Mr Doof · Feb 20, 2024

ReForest said:
Big difference is @20W-50 and blood said there is no trust! No trust means you have to go through probate to appoint anyone powers. It appears there is an active POA but it looks like the bank doesn't like something about it. So he either needs to find some nice person at the bank that will work with him and help him... or hire an attorney to file a probate action and get an order appointing someone the powers to do what needs to be done. Totally different situation in my opinion.

Though 20w-50 isn't at this point, at time of death, probate is not always required in these situations.

Don't believe me, believe the State of California.

Click here for details.

Key points:

"It can be difficult to figure out whether you can use a simplified informal process to transfer property. In addition to assets that already have a designated beneficiary (like a life insurance or a bank account), estates with a value of $166,250 or less may qualify for a non-formal probate case."

Am a fan of Nolo Press and their self-help books. Have used them to save me $ over the years.

Check 'em out (click me) if you are a DIY person or just want to make sure your hard earned money is going to a lawyer that is worth it.

Pension to wife to power of attorney question? Odd...I know

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