Finally we can have light boards that don't go to sh!t in a few seasons.finally the Firewire popups replaced the Moonlight Glassing glassed surfboards here on the forum...
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Endtimes for the Surfboard Industry?
- Thread starter vanrysss
- Start date
everyone's tolerance and ability to perceive differences in board and fin flex is different and its not related to how good they are at surfing. I once had an oversized tuflite New Flyer for sale and a mate of a mate was interested in it - after trying it he told me that it was far too bouncy a ride for him - he liked the look of the board before trying it. My mate said that the prospective purchaser was only a lower intermediate surfer at best! I remember asking a really good shortboard rider what he thought of his new tuflite and he said not sure yet he hasn't had it long - this was after I saw him get plenty of waves in Santa Cruz.Obviously, fins are very important, but I don't think as important as to say they are "the most critical aspect of any modern shortboard". For me they're two separate things and both need to work properly and together.
A good set of fins can't change a bad rocker, foiling or rails... Not even fin placement.
I'm usually close to 187 lbs, so I can't even try plastic fins. I tend to like Futures Techflex as my everyday fins but also like Blackstix in smaller waves and solid fiberglass on bigger waves. But tried recently a set of honeycombs that I liked in smaller on shore broken waves.
That said: IMO a set of fins can change the board a bit, making it looser, adding some bite, but generally, you won't turn a shitty board into a keeper just by changing the fins. I had board that I liked but were too stiff or too loose and was able to love them by changing the fins, but they were already good boards.
BTW, I lurk the forum some nights every month but I don't feel like writing from and Ipad and lying on bed... Good to see many of you still post over here. But really upset that finally the Firewire popups replaced the Moonlight Glassing glassed surfboards here on the forum...
I consider myself to be an intermediate surfer, by erBB standards I'm a beginner, but I can really notice differences in flex - single 4oz compared to 4oz with patch I can tell. Huge difference between composite epoxy and regular PU, quite a noticeable difference between non composite epoxy/eps etc etc. My foamie feels quite different too. However its mainly just feel. It doesn't make any difference to hard driving speed or cruising speed. So in junky conditions its possible to use the resonant flex of a board to time the fish killer (huntington hop) efficiently and just maybe the more resilient build of composite can get a little bit more out of it. Also when trying to bounce off chop to extract every bit of power out of junky sloppy waves. So just possibly a more resilient composite build such as OG tuflite or tuflite pro-carbon, firewire dark arts etc can help such abominations of technique in junky waves a tiny bit (or maybe it just feels like helping). However a good surfer on PU will always beat me for speed regardless what board I'm on. Similarly a good surfer on composite would go faster than an average surfer on PU.
Fin flex are huge difference in perception to me - the difference between Blackstix and say techflex is night and day - does blackstix help me go faster in smaller waves? Hard to know, but I can feel them flex a lot in bigger waves - does this slow me down in bigger waves - impossible for me to give an opinion on that. I've actually been surprised that anyone of a regular Caucasian weight can tolerate blackstix (I'm diminutive so they must be flexing much more under regular weight/power) - just shows their tolerances to difference in flex must be high. I like Blackstix, but then I like techflex too.
So flex makes a big difference to how a board feels, but I absolutely reject the idea that a board is building enough spring loaded potential energy during a bottom turn to project one out of it at a faster speed - as claimed by some people. I'm not suggesting you are saying this, but I have heard this fallacy from various sources.
Wow. So wrong in so few words.
You’ve said this twice now.
I’ve blown out fins from bottom turns. I’ve snapped boards from hitting the lip. I apply a lot more force on boards than a typical midget CT surfer. Have you ever ridden a CI that was made for a CT pro? I have.
One session at rincon and the board was completely destroyed by the amount of force I put on it.
I’m over 200 lbs. Slaten is a buck forty. Physics.
I believe you that you apply a lot of force if you destroyed a pro board, but I would not belittle the "midget" pro surfers. I've surfed Bells while the pros are practicing and I've been shocked at the force they can apply. I remember seeing an incredibly violent backhand off the lip performed by someone wearing a red wetsuit - I later identified him as Yago Dora. Another memory that sticks in my mind is watching Vic B grade pro Adam "robbo" Robertson hit the Bells lip frontside with a different technique - a less forced approach, sort of getting the board under the lip and bouncing it back downwards to the trough. He seemed to be able to throw all his weight into it giving me the impression that the board must have been close to breaking point.
Had a FW boar with balsa parabolic rails. One and only after I learned their deal. Could feel the boar load up and spring back. It threw me off because it was a micro second slower springing back than the PU/PE builds I’ve been surfing all my life. Must not have been popular cause they don’t offer that build anymore. Would not bang again.
Did get a memorable barrel on that boar. When i told my BIL he said tubes you just go straight anyway. Haha.
Did get a memorable barrel on that boar. When i told my BIL he said tubes you just go straight anyway. Haha.
No I don't think he is trolling, I agree with the main point of @Northern_Shores post that there is no "useable spring effect" as in projecting us forward out of a turn - Bert Berger and I think at some stage firewire has claimed this, I've also seen this claim elsewhere. Although I agree with you that a board is both bending and twisting significantly.
I've measured boards flex by placing them with polystyrene blocks and standing in the middle. Of the 3 types I mentioned in order of flexiness
- 1. PU/PE
- 2. Composite stringerless EPS/EPOXY with basalt and carbon reinforcement.
- 3. stiffest was og tuflite, but even that still bent under my weight.
I do think rocker increases during a bottom turn and flattens out when unweighting out of it which partly explains why they feel different - the PU HP boar increases its rocker more than a tuflite - increased rocker has more suction effect and the rails bite deeper into the water which gives us the feeling that the board is more "engaged" with the wave energy. The tuflite doesn't bend so much so stays higher in the water - which is why a lot of people complain they are too "corky" and wrongly attribute that corkiness to the reduced weight of an eps/epoxy build (when in fact pro pu/pe is lighter). So flex matters depending on how much someone wants that "engaged with the wave" feeling, but its not going to help the rider go faster during a bottom turn - the opposite would be occurring due to increased drag from deeper buried rails.
They have a different resonant frequency - that's how I measured the flex. I followed the instructions of materials scientist Benjamin Thompson who had a method for measuring flex without any special instruments. With the board supported on polystyrene blocks at about 1' in each end, it was basically bounce up and down slowly increasing the bounce speed until the resonant frequency is found - this is very obvious - all of a sudden the board goes into a natural up and down rhythm and starts to increase its bend with less force needed. Once that resonant bounce is found, count how many bounces in a minute. More bounces in a minute => stiffer boar.
So yes the board is going to spring back with different timing. For a long term beginner/intermediate like me it really only has an effect when timing fish killers, I don't find the adjustment hard to make. I can tell its different, but its not going to throw me off.
I’ve ridden a few Patagonia FCD boars and the flex is noticeably different. They’re EPS/Epoxy with 2 layers on the bottom and 3 layers on the deck. Boars feel stiffer. Going rail to rail, pumping the boar for speed feels like it’s chopping away at the wave. Fast but stiff.
I just love the way a lightly glassed PU/PE boar feels. Fortunately or unfortunately I’m not a boar destroying, arm barring, middle linebacker, Californian golden god so my boars last a little longer than a bottom turn top turn combo. Downside is I can feel when a boar goes dead. Once it loses its pop, (flex) it loses its mojo.
Yes there’s a bunch of different constructions out there. I’ve tried a few but have always gone back to a lightly glassed PU/PE. I don’t or can’t explain it in technical terms like more bounce to the ounce but just in how a boar feels.
I just love the way a lightly glassed PU/PE boar feels. Fortunately or unfortunately I’m not a boar destroying, arm barring, middle linebacker, Californian golden god so my boars last a little longer than a bottom turn top turn combo. Downside is I can feel when a boar goes dead. Once it loses its pop, (flex) it loses its mojo.
Yes there’s a bunch of different constructions out there. I’ve tried a few but have always gone back to a lightly glassed PU/PE. I don’t or can’t explain it in technical terms like more bounce to the ounce but just in how a boar feels.
Read below in the tone of respectful discussion. I’m not trying to rip on you….and I’m also not 100% convinced of my opinion on this either…
So despite saying there is “no usable spring effect” you then go on to say the exact opposite with your example of increased rocker during a turn.
If a board flexes, increasing the rocker during the turn (from the application of weight and pressure from the rider) and that results in suction/grip/engagement then what do you think happens when there’s a letup in pressure during the transition from bottom turn to top turn?
Well the opposite would happen. The board will flatten out and disengage resulting in release. This release would/could add to your acceleration out of a turn, more or less depending on build material. PU has less of this (which is mostly a good thing IMHO) but other builds have more.
Now is the effect “significant” in terms of measurable added acceleration? Probably not. But it certainly feels different.
FWIW: I had Plasmic in PU and then got one in DA with the exact same dims. Did those boards feel different? They did. So much so that it almost made them two completely different designs.
But as that relates to the topic flex, well it really doesn’t because the difference in board weight was so significant it would be impossible to make a comparison in regards to flex.
Plus, how much flex are we getting from a thick, foam packed 5’6 anyway?
A lot of this may have to do with if you are a front footed or back footed surfer. I'm very much a back footed surfer for me its all about driving off of the fins.
I surf with pros all the time. They generate amzing amounts of speed which translates to very high levels of force.
Dane Reynolds fucks boards up. 200 pounds, generates incredible speeds, torques his turns like a pneumatic wrench.
Bobby’s style as it relates to putting power into turns is similar but he is lighter by 40ish pounds so his boards hold up better.
Everyone who can hit the lip on a short board is surfing off the back foot.
Bingo.
this is the “proof” that flex is important. PU boards lose it over time and the board turns to dog sh!t.
Based on the turn this conversation has taken, I thought this gem might be worth revisiting and reflecting upon. Keep pushing everyone and you too will be throwing buckets in no time, epoxies be damned.
Of course you are in that instant but what about generating speed in between top turns? Its kind of like how people ride a skateboard on flat ground. Some people generate speed by driving off of the center of the board with all four wheels on the ground. For me its almost entirely off of the back foot and wheels with my front wheels being off the ground a lot.
My youngest son is like that. With single 4oz team glassed boards he would split the glass along the stringer under his feet. I got tired of fixing them and started adding a patch of glass under his feet to his boards before he'd use them. Ultimately went back to traditional glassing.
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I think I'll start wearing a helmet when I deadlift.
psI throw buckets when I top turn. Ever see those yellow and orange ones at the beach, with the little shovels?