Are the Democrats about to cook up a fake war

VonMeister

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JOE BIDENS RAPE FINGER
MVC:
Has anyone read any entrails today?

Edit: i'm betting against a sustained guerrilla campaign. Those are waged by peoples with a lot of young men to pour into them over 20 years.
Russian jets, tanks, armor boats are third world. They wouldn't survive a battle against any western military...except for Germany who really doesn't have a functional one.

The only thing scary about Russias military is nuclear weapons and their appetite for using weapons of mass destruction without a thought. If Ukraine resistance holds or slows the timeline down Putin will order the use of thermobaric weapons, which suck the oxygen out of the surrounding area and kill everyone in large swaths. He is going to start dropping them on Kyiv soon. Biden and Germany will still buy oil from him though.
 
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Sharkbiscuit

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This is why I find all the hand wringing over Ukraine a bit hypocritical.

Putin is a thug and I feel terrible for the Ukrainian people, but if a part of US decided to become an independent country and allow Russians to put missiles there - no matter who is in power, Republican or Democrat, would do exactly what Putin is doing right now.

And I know the majority of Americans would support it.

Not to mention all the US/NATO bombardment that went on in Europe and elsewhere in the 90s and 00s

Every civil war that started since the 1991 was triggered by the same process. A region with a mixed ethnic population declares independence, the West rushes to recognize it without thinking and the war ensues.
Technically, part of the US did decide to become an independent country and allowed Russians to put missiles there.

The Cold Warriors were an embarrassment, but that was resolved with negotiations, not invasion, and it was the genesis of the "direct hotline".
 

Driftcoast

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This is why I find all the hand wringing over Ukraine a bit hypocritical.

Putin is a thug and I feel terrible for the Ukrainian people, but if a part of US decided to become an independent country and allow Russians to put missiles there - no matter who is in power, Republican or Democrat, would do exactly what Putin is doing right now.

And I know the majority of Americans would support it.

Not to mention all the US/NATO bombardment that went on in Europe and elsewhere in the 90s and 00s

Every civil war that started since the 1991 was triggered by the same process. A region with a mixed ethnic population declares independence, the West rushes to recognize it without thinking and the war ensues.

What part of Ukraine decided to be independent?
 
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doubleup

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We better watch out that Macron doesn’t come for what once belonged to France! :dancing:

View attachment 124954
Don't forget, at the siege of Yorktown French forces outnumbered American colonial forces by nearly two to one. Plus the French fleet blockaded the British, preventing escape or reinforcement of Cornwall.
 

plasticbertrand

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Technically, part of the US did decide to become an independent country and allowed Russians to put missiles there.

The Cold Warriors were an embarrassment, but that was resolved with negotiations, not invasion, and it was the genesis of the "direct hotline".
Not quite the same.

Cuba has it's culture, language and ethnicity and it's not a part of continental US.

I gave a better example of San Diego county becoming and independent country but nobody wanted to touch it.
It's much closer to what's going on.

With an exception that San Diegans didn't run concentration camps and killed million Jews.

 

plasticbertrand

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What part of Ukraine decided to be independent?
Ukraine was never an independent country, until 1992 when it "decided" to do so.

Until 1992, it was just a region in Russia. It was never an independent country.

I'm not bagging on Ukraine, I'm just saying, it's not that simple.

Look what happened in Kosovo.
 
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PRCD

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Russian jets, tanks, armor boats are third world. They wouldn't survive a battle against any western military...except for Germany who really doesn't have a functional one.
This all seems hard to know. The Russians have built jets that were more-maneuverable than ours in the past. We've built some real lemons like the F-117, F-14, and F-35. The Fighter Mafia managed to get the F-15, F-16, and F-18 through the Pentagon but had to fight the generals every step of the way. Read "Boyd" by Robert Coram. We don't have a lot of F-22s because they cost so much to build. This is the latest Russian jet.
Much depends on training.

I don't know how their tanks stack up to ours, but I bet theirs work better in winter. The tests of the Bradley FIghting Vehicle were totally staged.

We wasted a lot of Russian tanks in Iraq I and II, but IDK how many were destroyed by our tanks, anti-tank missiles, or the A-10 which is a superb airplane that the generals fought all the way through development.

The only comparison I could find between our readiness as a Western military and the bulk of NATO and theirs is this:

Seems to me we have no way of knowing all this but the Russians have fought serious enemies recently in Chechnya and made reforms afterward.
The only thing scary about Russias military is nuclear weapons and their appetite for using weapons of mass destruction without a thought. If Ukraine resistance holds or slows the timeline down Putin will order the use of thermobaric weapons, which suck the oxygen out of the surrounding area and kill everyone in large swaths. He is going to start dropping them on Kyiv soon. Biden and Germany will still buy oil from him though.
Seems to me like they're trying to minimize destruction and loss of life. Much depends on whether Ukrainian civilians who were armed yesterday shoot at the Russians out of buildings in Kiev. That would result in much more destruction. In the limit, it could look like this:

Consider that your average Ukrainian woman has only one child. Will she send her son or husband out to fight an unwinnable, protracted guerrilla war against the Russians or tell him to accept the inevitable outcome?
 

StuAzole

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Ukraine was never an independent country, until 1992 when it "decided" to do so.

Until 1992, it was just a region in Russia. It was never an independent country.

I'm not bagging on Ukraine, I'm just saying, it's not that simple.

Look what happened in Kosovo.
Not true. It was an independent state following the Russian revolution and when the USSR was founded they recognized it as such for the very reasons that Ukrainians talk about today.
 

plasticbertrand

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Not true. It was an independent state following the Russian revolution and when the USSR was founded they recognized it as such for the very reasons that Ukrainians talk about today.
Actually no, Ukraine was not an independent country until 1992.

Ukraine was a Russian "union state" but never an independent country.

I don't mind if you can prove me wrong.

I know people love to simplify and not look at the complexity of the conflict and that they like to have a villain and a victim and nothing in between.
It's not that simple. History is messy.

That's why the US fucked up every war it started.
It took sides while ignoring the complexities.

Kosovo was the same.
 
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StuAzole

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Actually no, Ukraine was not an independent country until 1992.

Ukraine was a Russian "union state" but never an independent country.

I don't mind if you can prove me wrong.

I know people love to simplify and not look at the complexity of the conflict and that they like to have a villain and a victim and nothing in between.
It's not that simple. History is messy.

That's why the US fucked up every war it started.
It took sides while ignoring the complexities.

Kosovo was the same.
Make of it what you will…


My grandmother spent a decent portion of her life in Estonia before fleeing to the US. I’m aware of the complexity here.
 
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plasticbertrand

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Make of it what you will…


My grandmother spent a decent portion of her life in Estonia before fleeing to the US. I’m aware of the complexity here.
That's what I mean, it doesn't have a history of independence other than for a few months, until 1992 when it declared independence which was hurriedly recognized by the NATO countries for obvious reasons.

Same happened with Bosnia and Kosovo. Kosovo was a region and Bosnia was a part of the federation, like a US state. Both had mixed ethnicities and religions as well as tumultuous history, that nobody bothered to learn about before recognizing their independence.

Hence wars.