Someday I’ll tell you all what I think of blanks that have the rocker put in via heat bending.
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Varial RIP
- Thread starter ChaseTMP
- Start date
There were actually three softly squared edges between those two points on one rail. It looked like they had a kindergartner try to mimic Eye Symmetry's Octo-Rail (on one rail) blindfolded with a block sander. They also threw in a 1/2" x 3" divot about an 1/8" deep between the fins for free. The pièce de résitance was the crew trying to remedy things by working on the bort on bare concrete in front of the shop resulting in several spider cracks easily visible on the purply/black and purple (supposed to have been black and grey) spray. They remade the bort and it came back over seven pounds with a flex number two different than the first. I took a bath on selling the second one used, but Jon Pyzel helped even things out.
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My AO is PU/DA. My guess is wood stringer judging by the how the wax went on.
Best build out there.
I've never seen a varial, so based on descriptions of the foam it might be SAN or PMI (Styrene acrylonitrile or Polymethacrylimide), brand names Gurit Corecell, Evonik Rohacell and CA composites PMI,
The lowest density of Corecell is 65 kg/m3 which is 4.1 lb/ft3 so too heavy for a blank. The lowest densities of PMI are 32 and 45 kg/m3 which is 1.9 lb/ft3 and 2.8 b/ft3. So in the right ballpark. CA composites sheet thickness for those densities is 80mm, no good for a blank. They do a 110mm (4.3 inch) thickness which would do a fish rocker, but thats 72 kg/m3 density so far too heavy.
So my guess is that Varial is Evonik PMI. Evonik is a chemical company and CA is a distributor, and the sheets from CA come in the exact same densities as Rohacell, so although they don't say it looks like its all the same foam from Evonik. I think its unlikely Varial were getting a special density/formula, but had some agreement to get sheets cut extra thick and the company that does the cutting of the sheets no longer considers it worthwhile to cut in that custom thickness. Not sure where "licensing" would come in to the deal - I don't know how that works. If enough surfboard manufacturers started demanding PMI then it might be worth it, but Varial wouldn't want that. I liked what they were doing with their lab break tests.
Polyester vs. Epoxy - Choosing Your Surfboard Resin – Varial (varialsurf.com)
or maybe as Sharky alluded to, they are thermoformed - needs a high temp to avoid springback, doesn't sound cheap.
this
there is no such thing as varial foam beyond the company's surfboard marketing label. "sole licensing agreement" sounds like surfer bullshit and probably contributed to varial's demise. had they taken the approach of sharing their sourcing industry wide and working to get the material into more manufacturers hands things might have turned out differently.
OK. When Varial first showed up in my shop, they brought in a rectangle of foam. I'm not going to cut that. I could rough out a template and cut that out with a saw, but then I am stuck hogging out massive amounts of foam because there is no rocker in the block of foam they provided me with. I think I did one for novelty purposes and then explained the problem to them.
The next blanks they brought to me were machined into a blank-like shape. I don't know who they conned into doing the work, but the poor bastard must have been desperate for something to do. The foam however was interesting. And some magic boards came out of those blanks. But I knew it wasn't going to fly long-term. The costs had to have been ridiculous.
Next they brought in blanks that had been cut out of a billet of foam and then heat bent so there was rocker. The blanks were close to 4" thick, nose to tail. But, heat bending them was a LOT quicker than having some poor bastard machine giant rectangles into blank shape.
The next thing was the smell. The foam, upon cutting, exuded this NASTY chemical stench. Wasn't bad for a few boards. Whatever. Then I think I did like 15 of them in one day. I was in a t-shirt and trunks, wearing a respirator. And I got sick as fvck. The next day it felt like I had gone on a tequila binge. And I was stone cold sober. But whatever. After that I would do one. Then do a few poly/eps blanks. Then another one. Rollup doors wide open, fans going full blast and long sleeve shirt and pants and shoes. That worked OK. The Varial guys swore the smell wasn't a big deal. Some of my shapers came back and told me finish shaping the blanks made them sick. I don't know. I can't imagine it was good for you.
Then I noticed something else. The machine I use cuts the deck/rails in first. So the blank gets mounted on the machine deck up. It is held in place with a vacuum system. So you then put the blank on the machine and then go underneath the blank and move supports into position all along the blank. Once that is done, you move the vacuum/suction cups into position and lock the blank into position. Then you cut the deck and the rails. The machine stops and you go out and flip the blank, line it all up, repeat the process.
Here's where it got weird. Or weirder anyway. I cut the deck side, the machine stops and I go out to flip the blank. So the first thing that has to happen is I go to the bottom side of the half cut blank and release the blank from the vacuum so it can be flipped. Supports are still in position. And what does the blank do? It springs UP. A lot. The blank would be teetering on the level bar and floating above the supports further out nose/tail. That's weird. It gets weirder though. So you flip the blank and mill the other side and release the blank and again, the blank springs UP. WTF?
Stay tuned for part 2
The next blanks they brought to me were machined into a blank-like shape. I don't know who they conned into doing the work, but the poor bastard must have been desperate for something to do. The foam however was interesting. And some magic boards came out of those blanks. But I knew it wasn't going to fly long-term. The costs had to have been ridiculous.
Next they brought in blanks that had been cut out of a billet of foam and then heat bent so there was rocker. The blanks were close to 4" thick, nose to tail. But, heat bending them was a LOT quicker than having some poor bastard machine giant rectangles into blank shape.
The next thing was the smell. The foam, upon cutting, exuded this NASTY chemical stench. Wasn't bad for a few boards. Whatever. Then I think I did like 15 of them in one day. I was in a t-shirt and trunks, wearing a respirator. And I got sick as fvck. The next day it felt like I had gone on a tequila binge. And I was stone cold sober. But whatever. After that I would do one. Then do a few poly/eps blanks. Then another one. Rollup doors wide open, fans going full blast and long sleeve shirt and pants and shoes. That worked OK. The Varial guys swore the smell wasn't a big deal. Some of my shapers came back and told me finish shaping the blanks made them sick. I don't know. I can't imagine it was good for you.
Then I noticed something else. The machine I use cuts the deck/rails in first. So the blank gets mounted on the machine deck up. It is held in place with a vacuum system. So you then put the blank on the machine and then go underneath the blank and move supports into position all along the blank. Once that is done, you move the vacuum/suction cups into position and lock the blank into position. Then you cut the deck and the rails. The machine stops and you go out and flip the blank, line it all up, repeat the process.
Here's where it got weird. Or weirder anyway. I cut the deck side, the machine stops and I go out to flip the blank. So the first thing that has to happen is I go to the bottom side of the half cut blank and release the blank from the vacuum so it can be flipped. Supports are still in position. And what does the blank do? It springs UP. A lot. The blank would be teetering on the level bar and floating above the supports further out nose/tail. That's weird. It gets weirder though. So you flip the blank and mill the other side and release the blank and again, the blank springs UP. WTF?
Stay tuned for part 2
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Now on the first side cut, when the blank springs UP? Deck side UP? The machine doesn't know that this has happened. So think about how that affects the thickness of the nose and tail when you cut the other side. Your thickness flow is fucked up. Your nose in particular is going to be thick. But whatever. More fun for the finish shaper I suppose. Now let's think about the rocker. What are you winding up with for rocker? Is it what the design file says it is, or is it something else? Something else was frequently the answer.
I measured this all out before and after. I took video footage. The springing up on both sides thing was wild. I have no idea WTF was going on. Did magic boards get cut out of these blanks? Yes. But IMO it was kind of random re what rocker you wound up with.
So I tell the Varial guys this. I suggest blowing the stuff in molds as a possible. Too expensive, not possible. I suggest putting a thin PVC stringer down the middle to hold rocker shape. (I don't know if this would have worked but it was worth a shot) Too expensive, time etc. Then finally they came back and told me to place the board centrally in the blank deck to bottom. That way when it springs in one direction, when you flip it, it springs the same amount in the other direction? Allegedly. On a wing and a prayer. That seems more than a little imprecise.
Ordinarily when you mill a PU blank you put the design as close to deck side as possible. Just barely skin the deck. Shallow a cut as possible to leave a hard deck. So that approach had to be changed. So you ordered a blank that closely parallelled the rocker profile of the design, placed the design centrally in the blank and let it spring as it will. And that worked to some extent. I measured rockers a few times and they were closer to close enough if you got it right. It was better. The thickness nose and tail came out truer.
The blanks still stank, you had to use the Princess Cut (more cuts per side taking smaller bites) and slow the machine down here and there as you hogged out huge amounts of foam. Sometimes you even ran the entire first side cut multiple times at different depths to make it happen.
I'm over it at this point. I'm not refusing to cut it, but if you came in with one and you were always at the back of the line. Until I got slow and had extra time. Plus you owed me more money. More cuts per side, multiple passes, slowed machine etc.
Eventually Varial bought a very nice double cutter version of the machine I have. I was stoked to never have to cut another one. It was no longer my problem.
And the Sharky lived happily ever after, never cutting another Varial blank so long as he lived.
Yay.
It's cool foam. I could deal with the chemical stench. (although I worry about the health ramifications) I dislike putting a stringer on the blank as a matching pencil line on each side, but whatever. It made some magic boards. But could you get the same board twice? Did you get the rocker/thickness profile in the file or did you get something else? Seemed problematic. I wish they had tried the PVC stringer thing. They declined to try. I think it might have been enough to hold the rocker in the blank. Again, whatever. Not my problem.
I held my tongue all the way through this thing because I wanted them to make it. This is a tough business. They threw a lot of money at this project. I wished them all the best in spite of my personal reservations.
Last night I said something about buying their machine. My wife threw things at me.
I think I'm done.
I measured this all out before and after. I took video footage. The springing up on both sides thing was wild. I have no idea WTF was going on. Did magic boards get cut out of these blanks? Yes. But IMO it was kind of random re what rocker you wound up with.
So I tell the Varial guys this. I suggest blowing the stuff in molds as a possible. Too expensive, not possible. I suggest putting a thin PVC stringer down the middle to hold rocker shape. (I don't know if this would have worked but it was worth a shot) Too expensive, time etc. Then finally they came back and told me to place the board centrally in the blank deck to bottom. That way when it springs in one direction, when you flip it, it springs the same amount in the other direction? Allegedly. On a wing and a prayer. That seems more than a little imprecise.
Ordinarily when you mill a PU blank you put the design as close to deck side as possible. Just barely skin the deck. Shallow a cut as possible to leave a hard deck. So that approach had to be changed. So you ordered a blank that closely parallelled the rocker profile of the design, placed the design centrally in the blank and let it spring as it will. And that worked to some extent. I measured rockers a few times and they were closer to close enough if you got it right. It was better. The thickness nose and tail came out truer.
The blanks still stank, you had to use the Princess Cut (more cuts per side taking smaller bites) and slow the machine down here and there as you hogged out huge amounts of foam. Sometimes you even ran the entire first side cut multiple times at different depths to make it happen.
I'm over it at this point. I'm not refusing to cut it, but if you came in with one and you were always at the back of the line. Until I got slow and had extra time. Plus you owed me more money. More cuts per side, multiple passes, slowed machine etc.
Eventually Varial bought a very nice double cutter version of the machine I have. I was stoked to never have to cut another one. It was no longer my problem.
And the Sharky lived happily ever after, never cutting another Varial blank so long as he lived.
Yay.
It's cool foam. I could deal with the chemical stench. (although I worry about the health ramifications) I dislike putting a stringer on the blank as a matching pencil line on each side, but whatever. It made some magic boards. But could you get the same board twice? Did you get the rocker/thickness profile in the file or did you get something else? Seemed problematic. I wish they had tried the PVC stringer thing. They declined to try. I think it might have been enough to hold the rocker in the blank. Again, whatever. Not my problem.
I held my tongue all the way through this thing because I wanted them to make it. This is a tough business. They threw a lot of money at this project. I wished them all the best in spite of my personal reservations.
Last night I said something about buying their machine. My wife threw things at me.
I think I'm done.
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Seems varial resolved their production problems with the blanks by doing all cuts in house.
Makes sense. Surprised they were as affordable as they were given all the circumstances involved.
Makes sense. Surprised they were as affordable as they were given all the circumstances involved.
tech broz ruined surfing. sux bc i cannot make any venereal jokes anymore...
I swear I listened to a podcast where the varial guy said he developed the stuff
Checked their site earlier and it looks like they’ve gone the opposite route with everything being marked up. I could be wrong tho.
honestly. modern PU is pretty dang good
Heard they're announcing the closing this week from a reliable source that spoke to Parker this morning.
