The Pope backs Bush, supports war in Iraq

trippy

Legend (inyourownmind)
Dec 18, 2002
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Pope takes issue with America's 'just war'
From Richard Owen in Rome

THE POPE launched an eleventh-hour crusade yesterday to avert a war against Iraq, for which he believes there is no justification.

The ageing pontiff rebuffed attempts by the Bush Administration to persuade him that impending military action against Baghdad amounted to a Christian “just war”.

Today he will dispatch a personal peace envoy to Baghdad to urge President Saddam Hussein to co-operate fully with United Nations weapons inspectors.

At the end of the week he will meet Tariq Aziz, Iraq’s Deputy Prime Minister and an Arab Christian, in Rome, and will also meet Kofi Annan, the UN Secretary-General. Diplomats said that Mr Aziz might remain in Rome to meet Mr Annan under the auspices of the Vatican.

Looking and sounding like a man rejuvenated by the urgent need to avert the imminent conflict, the Pope, 82, also gave his backing to the new Franco-German plan to resolve the Iraq crisis through beefed-up weapons inspections and the deployment of UN troops. The plan was disclosed to the Pope on Friday by Joschka Fischer, the German Foreign Minister. Diplomats said that the Pope had been “the first world figure to be told of the plan”.

Yesterday the Pope made a dramatic and impassioned appeal for world prayers, declaring that only God could stop the conflict now. “At this hour of international worry we all feel the need to look to God and beg him to grant us the great gift of peace,” he told pilgrims and visitors in St Peter’s Square. Only “an act from on high” could offer hope of altering what appeared to be a bleak future.

The Pope is sending Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, his diplomatic troubleshooter, to Baghdad. Cardinal Etchegaray, a French Basque, has undertaken sensitive diplomatic missions for the Pope in the past. Last year he helped to negotiate an end to the siege of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, where Palestinian gunmen had taken refuge.

At the weekend the Pope said that efforts to stave off war must be multiplied. “One cannot do nothing in the face of terrorist attacks, but equally one cannot be idle in the face of the threats now on the horizon,” he said. “War is not inevitable.”

The case for a “just war” was made at the weekend by Michael Novak, a conservative Roman Catholic theologian and a close ally of President Bush, in talks with senior Vatican officials, including Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran, the Pope’s Foreign Secretary.

Under the principles of “just war”, as formulated by St Augustine of Hippo and later by St Thomas Aquinas, war can be waged only as a last resort and by a “legitimate authority”. It must be fought with “right intentions”, for example in self-defence or to redress a wrong, and with a reasonable chance of success to avoid excessive death and injury. The theory of just war also holds that civilian casualties must be avoided, that the means used must be proportionate and that the ultimate goal should be to establish a peace “preferable to what would have prevailed if the war had not been fought”.

Mr Novak, who today will address a conference in Rome on just war organised by James Nicholson, the US Ambassador to the Holy See, insisted that war against Iraq amounted to self-defence. He told Archbishop Tauran that Saddam was using Iraqi scientists “to breed huge destruction in the US and Europe”. He said that those who opposed war would have a lot on their consciences if the United States failed to act and Americans were later killed by Saddam’s weapons. The Catholic catechism also justified the use of force provided that it was sanctioned by those responsible for the common good, Mr Novak said.

But the Archbishop, speaking for the Pope, said that US arguments were insufficient and that there was no imminent threat from Baghdad that could justify a war.

Civiltà Cattolica (Catholic Civilisation), a Jesuit journal that reflects Vatican views, said that “the Islamic masses, which already harbour a deep hatred of the West, will see it as an act of war against Islam”. The journal said that the real US motive was economic and that the concept of “preventive war” was highly dangerous. “If every country which feels threatened attacks first, there will be war without end on the entire planet,” it said.
 

Simon Moon

Billy Hamilton status
Jan 10, 2002
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Hmmm...I wonder if it has anything to do with the Vatican bank having major investments in arms builders and suppliers?

No, that would be too cynical of me to have those kind of thoughts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
 

GWS

Duke status
Jan 11, 2002
42,605
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Like I give a **** what some senile old man &#8220;thinks.&#8221;

Please. Let&#8217;s trot out Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggert and the Ayatolah Whatever and get their opinions as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
 

Spray92109

Tom Curren status
Jan 10, 2002
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by GWS:
<strong>Like I give a **** what some senile old man &#8220;thinks.&#8221;
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No sh1t, huh.

The same people who make fun of Charlton Heston listen to the Pope?
 

barnacle

Michael Peterson status
Nov 5, 2002
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Newport, RI
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Hmmm...I wonder if it has anything to do with the Vatican bank having major investments in arms builders and suppliers?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I hope your not serious about that.
 

Spray92109

Tom Curren status
Jan 10, 2002
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San Diego, CA, USA
barnacle- I'm sure he IS serious. The Catholic Church has collected vast sums of money and sponsored slaughter and torture for millenia now, why should that change?

But I still want this thing for Baja. Bulletproof, 4x4, what else could you want?

<img src="http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/special/photo/pope/camels.jpg" alt=" - " />
 

Spray92109

Tom Curren status
Jan 10, 2002
12,253
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San Diego, CA, USA
Now here's a dilemma:

What if you mounted a beautiful, full-size flush toilet in the glass box? With 2-ply toilet paper.

Think about it. Baja, 2 hours from the highway, you're all dirty, but you gotta take a crap. But there are lots of people around.

Do you do it? Or find a scorpion-filled bush to hide behind?
 

crustBrother

Kelly Slater status
Apr 23, 2001
9,351
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Spray92109:
<strong>
Do you do it? Or find a scorpion-filled bush to hide behind?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is that glass box airconditioned? Cause that would be nice. Nuth'n like cool'n off and pinching a loaf. Or is that "dropping a growler"?
 

Spray92109

Tom Curren status
Jan 10, 2002
12,253
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San Diego, CA, USA
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by GWS:
<strong>Is it air-conditioned?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure, I'll sweeten the deal! And it's 2pm, 105 fahrenheit with steady 20MPH winds.
 

crustBrother

Kelly Slater status
Apr 23, 2001
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no fair, gws, i've been coding all day, my brain is fried, otherwise the AC quip would have been MINE!
 

barnacle

Michael Peterson status
Nov 5, 2002
3,189
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Newport, RI
Just saying- you can't say that without backing that stuff up. It is not true.

The vatican bank invests billions in individual managers who manage the money independent of the vatican and use special management instructions to speciffically avoid investing in many stocks that they do not like. I can name a handful of independent managers that handle some of these accounts. With the rest of their money the vatican actually loans out money at low low interest rates on huge credit risks for very noble cuases. These include many projects in central and south america, asia , africa,europe and here in the united states though organizations like catholic charities and hundreds of other catholic charities. I have personal knowledge of many catholic priests and volunteers working in guatamala and el salvador who have been killed and caught in the crossfire by communist rebels and government troops alike while supporting the basic human right to life that so many of the rebels and government troops try to deny them. They did this while working on vatican funded projects.
So I definitely have to call BS on the those statements that the catholic church funds war and death and deliberately invests in munitions companies and "death dealers".
Sure in many cases individuals who are associated with the catholic church or priests might have made mistakes, but now today you cant say that the Catholic church actually funds and supports war. Sure they supported the crusades, maybe the inquisition comes to mind, and the sin of omission pertaining to the holocaust, but they did not invest in war.
The Vatican's investment policy is considered to be more socialy responsible than any other- including the world bank.

[ February 11, 2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: barnacle ]
 

Doras Akook

OTF status
Jul 27, 2002
189
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That&#8217;s wonderful! That more than makes up for that little thing known as the Inquisition and supporting the N@zis during WW2 and all!

Not to mention telling ignorant uneducated people that live in third world countries and can barely feed themselves that birth control is a sin!

Gotta keep that Catholic birth rate high baby! Keeps that money rolling in!

[ February 11, 2003, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Doras Akook ]
 

trippy

Legend (inyourownmind)
Dec 18, 2002
448
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0
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Spray92109:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by GWS:
<strong>Like I give a **** what some senile old man &#8220;thinks.&#8221;
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No sh1t, huh.

The same people who make fun of Charlton Heston listen to the Pope?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm unclear on these ideas. Is wisdom not important? Is Charlton Heston a senile old man or a wise leader?
 

crustBrother

Kelly Slater status
Apr 23, 2001
9,351
5,560
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senile. senile like the pope.

hence the irony that people who make fun of one senile old man would put stock in the words of some other senile old man.
 

IrieShark

Michael Peterson status
May 2, 2002
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Visit site
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by peacenik circle jerk:
<strong>Pope takes issue with America's 'just war'
From Richard Owen in Rome

Yesterday the Pope made a dramatic and impassioned appeal for world prayers, declaring that only God could stop the conflict now. &#8220;At this hour of international worry we all feel the need to look to God and beg him to grant us the great gift of peace,&#8221; he told pilgrims and visitors in St Peter&#8217;s Square. Only &#8220;an act from on high&#8221; could offer hope of altering what appeared to be a bleak future.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Who would win in a fight, God or Allah?

Would Allah resort to a suicide bombing to blow up God? Or would God just detonate Allah from the sky? Would any of this even be possible? And where the hell is the Hippo where St. Augustine came from?

These are the questions we need ansewers to.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />