Single Concaves

Feb 3, 2004
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Hello,

I'm in the market for a new shortboard. I haven't been surfing much lately but have decided to give it another shot before old age sets in (I'm 39).

I noticed that most boards these days feature a single concave at or near the middle of the board that transitions to a double concave as you move back towards the fins.

I checked a few nice shapes by T. Patterson and noticed that his bottoms were single concaves all the way through.

Does anyone have any experience with Patterson's single concave bottoms? All other things being equal, what would be the difference between the two?

Any feedback would be helpful.

Thanks!
 

dk

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concaves give the board lift, while a double concave going into a vee would give it turning ability also.

never heard of his boards and therefor never seen em, but youd have to be more specific on how deep the single is. as the deeper it is, the more lift, but the board will also be harder to set on its raila nd throw some turns. thats why a single to double is good. it lets you keep speed, and lifts you, and while most of the turning is done in the rear foot, its got a double concave, and most likely some vee which will let it turn.

anyone else wanna add, or say im way off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

dk
 

lob

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Feb 20, 2003
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I'm I wrong if I say that (my opinion about the reason why a concave can be usefull - I'm a padawan, I might be wrong):

If you put your board on a flat table, you notice a curve all along the stringer: it's the rocker, from scoop to lift.
A fast board on the wave is a board with a flat rocker.
An easy board to turn ia a board with a more or less important rocker.
But, with a flat bottom, you cant get both.
Creating a concave allows you to.
By removing foam and wood along the stringer, you create a flatter zone in the middle of the board.
Then, when surfing "straight inline" the rocker is flatter than it seems.
And when turning, you keep the rail's curve you need.
Also, the depression under the board creates a "foil effect" who tends to make the board faster.

Is it right?

ps: sorry for my poor technical vocabulary. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
 
Feb 3, 2004
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So Cal
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Creating a concave allows you to.
By removing foam and wood along the stringer, you create a flatter zone in the middle of the board. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting...I never thought about it from a rocker perspective.

I didn't get a chance to measure how deep the concave was but if I were to guess, I'd say about 1/8" at the most. Of the six or seven boards, I looked, all but one featured a single concave.
 

dk

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Tubedog:
<strong>I agree that deep single concaves all the way out the back of the board, all else being equal, make it harder to turn. Now that being said, if you increase the tail rocker it can be loosened up. I see some outrageous tail rocker on some of those small wave single concave boards. I myself prefer the feel of a single to double concave, but there are two ways of making those: you can make the stringer recessed, or have it raised. I prefer it raised in front of the fins and flattening behind. Makes for easier turning and still very speedy. Long single concaves give lift and speed but often at the cost of easy turning.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">nice thought. as i said, a full single concave does tend to make turning a little chippy. it also depends what kinda waves youll be riding. im gonna say with big glassy surf, with long lines, it will work good, but small slow mush wont work as well. this is why most shapers go with single to double. or just vee in the tail with a tiny concave in the nose.

what are u riding right now? i know u havent been surfing much, so this might not be the board for u. but if u really want it, dont listen to us....buy use it and love it

good luck

dk
 
Feb 3, 2004
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So Cal
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> what are u riding right now? i know u havent been surfing much, so this might not be the board for u. but if u really want it, dont listen to us....buy use it and love it
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The board I have now is a 6'4" Rusty squash that's over 10 years old. I thought it was adequate given my dwindling desire to surf. But last month, a friend lent me a more contemporary 6'2" Bushman (single to double concaves) and my surfing felt revitalized. Now I want a new board.

I'll be surfing mostly North County beachbreak when it's small and clean. No big waves for me. I'll probably stick with the single to double since that Bushman worked for me. I was just curious about the Pattersons since that single concave seemed to be the dominant bottom configurations selling out of his shop in San Clemente.

Thanks for all the replies!
 

dk

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thunnus good choice!

with the right size, and shape, the single to double should give u the desire to surf somemore.

be sure to post what u got and how u like it

dk
 

carverb

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Jul 31, 2003
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DK -

Never heard of T Patterson? Then what kinds of good boards do they have in FL??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
 

ruds

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Apr 10, 2002
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BYB.... boards , i rode one of sunny garcias cast offs a friend of mine brought down to oz, a 6.2 square tail and it went off , loved it !!! did not want to give it back !!.A guy , Pat Mulherne shaped it , i think i remember him as a pro in th 80s , what do you have to say about those BYB boards DK ?
 
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Pauls design is scratched from all the information about the fastest flow forms aquatic and aerodynamic. He crunched the numbers came up with the FP.

An experiment for the kids at home...

Take a teaspoon, knife and go to the sink......turn on the tap halfway and play and actually watch whats going on.

You might think this is funny but youll be amazed at the different flow characteristics.....

A knife edge will release the water (sharp rails on the tail - more speed)

A teaspoon curve down into the flow will wrap the fluid around itself (rails)

A teaspoon facing curve up into the fluid flow will trap energy(turing into lift for FP at speed) and redirect the fluid flow... basicly you get wet. Concaves trap energy and if shaped all the way to the tail, you will end up with too much lift under the tail, your board and will lose direction at high speed (concaves)

If you hang a teaspoon gently from the end of the handle between you finger tips with the curve facing the flow move the spoon just touch the fluid flow and youll notice it will be drawn into the flow. (rocker)

A wave isnt made of flat straight lines so if you have the right rocker to match the wave similar to(syncromesh gears) your rocker is made up of nose lift, mid section, tail lift is what gets you through the bottom of the wave without it youll nose dive for sure too much means you have to stay in the power.

The FP concave it may look extreme at one centimetre deep compared with 3mm concaves at present that run rail to rail, rail to rail concaves can at times catch an outside edge, the FP concave stops 6cm from the rail to leave a flat neutral section which eliminates this problem. Also the FP concave is flat not dished, a dished concave turns fast edge to edge but a flat bottom concave is more stable all round(especialy at high speed) The planshape of FP concave is much the same as the tail on a big wave speed board. You cant compress a fluid. Because of this the flow is constantly accelerating to match the reducing area finnaly bursting from the concave tip releasing a water jet that is then tricked into returning beneath the tail of the board providing lift (stern pressure wave)

Returning more energy to the board eg "Penguins" and "12 meter" yachts use these principles that showed up though our research.

You are getting close guys the flat bottom concave in the FP acts as a flat rocker and lifting section all at once..so you have the best of both worlds a straight board and a curved board.

CHeck my site and look at the side evelvations and plan shape of the concave where it starts and finnishes....

Build one for yourself its a gas, youll be amazed at the performance.

Pauls design is scratched from all the information about the fastest flow forms aquatic and areodynamic. He crunched the numbers came up with the FP.

An experiment for the kids at home...

Take a teaspoon, knife and go to the sink......turn on the tap halfway and play and actually watch whats going on.

You might think this is funny but youll be amazed at the different flow characteristics.....

A knife edge will release the water (sharp rails on the tail - more speed)

A teaspoon curve down into the flow will wrap the fluid around itself (rails)

A teaspoon facing curve up into the fluid flow will trap energy(turing into lift for FP at speed) and redirect the fluid flow... basicly you get wet. Concaves trap energy and if shaped all the way to the tail, you will end up with too much lift under the tail your board and will lose direction at high speed (concaves)

If you hang a teaspoon gently from the end of the handle between you finger tips with the curve facing the flow move the spoon just touch the fluid flow and youll notice it will be drawn into the flow. (rocker)

A wave isnt made of flat straight lines so if you have the right rocker to match the wave similar to(syncromesh gears) your rocker is made up of nose lift, mid section, tail lift is what gets you through the bottom of the wave without it youll nose dive for sure too much means you have to stay in the power.

The FP concave it may look extreme at one centimetre deep compared with 3mm concaves at present that run rail to rail, rail to rail concaves can at times catch an outside edge, the FP concave stops 6cm from the rail to leave a flat neutral section which eliminates this problem. Also the FP concave is flat not dished, a dished concave turns fast edge to edge but a flat bottom concave is more stable all round(especialy at high speed) The planshape of FP concave is much the same as the tail on a big wave speed board. You cant compress a fluid. Because of this the flow is constantly accelerating to match the reducing area finnaly bursting from the concave tip releasing a water jet that is then tricked into returning beneath the tail of the board providing lift (stern pressure wave)

Returning more energy to the board eg "Penguins" and "12 meter" yachts use these principles that showed up though our research.

http://www.geocities.com/wunderboyi/newsequence.html

http://www.geocities.com/wunderboyi/ninetysixpercent.html

Gentlemen grab your cutlery
 

hackeysaky

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Dec 19, 2002
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Lob is pretty much dead on in the original principle of the concave. The generation of lift is something that has been tweaked over the years.

Fatty- the website is still lame, and those framegrabs (the kajillion framgrabs of the guy on a wave barely breaking) fall short of conveying the point you are trying to make (I can make similar connections as that with my twin keel Frye-style fish). I've seen pros and local guys alike weave over and thru rolling sections like that on shortboards.

The time elapsed in your framegrabs seem to have been elongated- for example, the total distance ridden between frame 1 and 14 is barely 10 feet (as deduced from the paddler in the water next to the guy riding). That said, I see where you are trying to go with it, try to get with the times and get some video footage of the beast in action... it is really not that hard to do and takes little effort).

I am all about thinking outside the box, but you have to prove it to me. As soon as I see some mind-blowing video footage I'll acknowlege it and possibly even advocate it. You might want to consider lying low until you have some bang-up "proof" to offer because, as you should have figured out by now from reactions to you and the FP on this and other message boards, you come off as lots of hype/spam with little actual supporting material to offer.

Guerrilla marketing for a design/product such as this is best by filming, filming, and filming, posting the footage online, and then shoving it into your detractors' faces. I'd actually like to see that, but until you have such "proof" you are paddling up a river of opposition and not going anywhere.
 

rice

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Jul 2, 2002
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Timmy Patterson is a great shaper; I'd say you can't go wrong with his boards. I've had about 6-7 over the years and they've been insane.

Although all of mine have been singe to double concave. Maybe he's not doing that anymore?
 

Big Brother

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Jul 14, 2003
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generalizing shape theories will put you in a state of mind fvck. it's more a question of degrees and balance. what works for ben will not necessarily work for jen.

t. patterson comes from a long lineage of surfboard designers and mfgrs going back generations.
 

dk

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sorry, call me kook ...but still dont know who he is. then again we dont get alot of the smae board u guys do. mostly smaller brands....spectrum, quiet flight, BAT, richenburg, and some of Greg L.'s boards....and of course your lost rusty, and other big named boards. but alot of them are smaller. the dude who shapes richenburg does a heck of a job....not sure if anyone is familiar with these, but lately been riding a little 5'6" chip and it works well for being so small

dk
 
Feb 3, 2004
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">sorry, call me kook ...but still dont know who he is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Timmy Patterson has a shop in San Clemente, CA. The list of surfers that have ridden his shapes at one time or another include Pat O' Connell, Gavin Beschen, Chris Ward, Sunny Garcia and Andy Irons. But he's probably most closely associated with Matt Archbold.

<img src="http://i.timeinc.net/mtnpub/content/images/old/oversized/00/12/SRF025013.jpg" alt=" - " />
 

dk

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thunnus, thanks for educating me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . im surprised i didnt notice in that case. plus archbold is a favorite of mine. old age is settin in....im almost 16 now
 

carverb

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Jul 31, 2003
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dk -

not saying you are a kook at all, patterson is just a pretty big label around here. PatO rides them and I see them in mags all the time.

Edit: Archy rides for Santa Cruz now, but he did rides Pattersons for a while. Also, sorry about repeating your post about guys riding his boards, I didnt see it.

[ February 05, 2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: carverb ]
 
Feb 3, 2004
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Here is another Patterson being put through its paces by Gavin Beschen.

<img src="http://i.timeinc.net/surf/content/images/V4N3/fullsize/SRF035008.jpg" alt=" - " />
 
Jan 12, 2004
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a single to double concave is good, though i now prefer flat to double. concave really came to be as a result of too much rocker and the need to regain some drive.try a relaxed entry rocker, to a vee/double concave in the tail. this gives plenty of drive and responsiveness. also, t. patterson makes insane boards, as a result he is super busy, plan 4-6 mos. before you get your board.