***Official Real Estate Thread***

sdsrfr

Phil Edwards status
Jul 13, 2020
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San Diego
things will certainly get shaken up.

the old system was broken as RE prices went up up up and the commission followed with. I like to think a free market would let those % drop naturally, as Subway did when picking his selling agent.

I don’t know whether it needed a full shake up. I know my buying agent earned her keep and I was happy to have her incentivized based on our general budget before any one house was offered on.

as for the national RE companies, I never understood the upside in the age of Redfin and Zillow. I’ve said it before, I don’t understand why you would pick someone who didn’t have a brokerage license which can come into play when trying to quickly grease a deal through.
 
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slipped_disc

Billy Hamilton status
Jun 27, 2019
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If this goes into effect in July, I imagine there will be a surge of new listings coming. Gotta sell while commissions are high.

anyone else have thoughts on this?
 

ReForest

Michael Peterson status
Oct 7, 2020
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I've never understood how real estate agents get paid. Sell a $100k house make 3% = $3,000. Sell a $1MILL house make 3% = $30,000. Same paperwork involved on both transactions! Mind blowing that you can do the exact same work and make 10x.

Also, dual agency! How fucking more a conflict can you get? How can one person (agent) have the best fiduciary interest in mind for 2 people who at odds with each other? It makes absolutely no sense.

1. I think 1 agent per party - mandatory.
2. Fixed commissions on each sale.
3. Brokers license required for a transaction (or just more education because most of the agents I speak with don't seem to have a good understanding of the laws involved in a transaction. They just see dollar signs).
 

npsp

Miki Dora status
Dec 30, 2003
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You're overstating the ease of a transaction. Based on what you've posted, you are an attorney of some sort so it may be easier for you to understand and negotiate a transaction than it is for others.
My wife works with high net worth clients who don't have the time to look at Zillow much less traipse around on weekends looking at a dozen houses. Then you have those in academia that are particularly clueless when it comes to negotiating transactions. It's soup to nuts.....
Yes, I know a buyer would not use a mass market firm for the buy side. The seller's agent often needs to be onsite before and after the inspection and for other visits. Doesn't work well when they are a hundred miles away and not motivated by their low commission.... This has happened more than once with my wife on transactions. In the end, the sellers felt bad for my wife because she shouldered most of the load to get the deal closed.
A good seller's agent is great at putting lipstick on a pig and staging. It takes a good buyer's agent to see through the makeup. I love previewing houses with my wife and picking out all the stuff that is lipstick and what will be called out in the inspection if it gets that far. What shakes out from the inspection is the real meat and potatoes and often dictates how the deal will go, if at all. Additionally, a good buyer's agent is also most likely a good seller's agent and has contacts for the trades so they know how much it will really cost to repair those items called out on the report. Is the cut rate seller's agent going to be through on the final walk through to make sure all repairs were done correctly? Does the cut rate agent have trades people on call should something seem off and need to be verified? Once those contingencies are removed, it's game over to get anything fixed or back out without losing your deposit.
 

hammies

Duke status
Apr 8, 2006
15,613
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I've never understood how real estate agents get paid. Sell a $100k house make 3% = $3,000. Sell a $1MILL house make 3% = $30,000. Same paperwork involved on both transactions! Mind blowing that you can do the exact same work and make 10x.

Also, dual agency! How fucking more a conflict can you get? How can one person (agent) have the best fiduciary interest in mind for 2 people who at odds with each other? It makes absolutely no sense.

1. I think 1 agent per party - mandatory.
2. Fixed commissions on each sale.
3. Brokers license required for a transaction (or just more education because most of the agents I speak with don't seem to have a good understanding of the laws involved in a transaction. They just see dollar signs).
I think the buyers model will change to a flat fee plus a commission if the sale completes. You have to incentivize making the sale, but you also have to pay them for the legwork even if the sale doesn't go through. Thanks to zillow and redfin and such, not much of the "legroom" is the agent driving you around to look at houses any more, thank God.

Whatever the case may be, there's gonna be a big shakeup. IIRC something like 20% of realtors make 80% of the money as is.
 

npsp

Miki Dora status
Dec 30, 2003
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I've never understood how real estate agents get paid. Sell a $100k house make 3% = $3,000. Sell a $1MILL house make 3% = $30,000. Same paperwork involved on both transactions! Mind blowing that you can do the exact same work and make 10x.

Also, dual agency! How fucking more a conflict can you get? How can one person (agent) have the best fiduciary interest in mind for 2 people who at odds with each other? It makes absolutely no sense.

1. I think 1 agent per party - mandatory.
2. Fixed commissions on each sale.
3. Brokers license required for a transaction (or just more education because most of the agents I speak with don't seem to have a good understanding of the laws involved in a transaction. They just see dollar signs).
There generally is a lot more going on with a $1mil house than a $100K house. While the base paperwork is the same, the property and negotiation is very different. Often though, with more expensive houses, you have cash buyers, this makes certain parts of the transaction much easier. Quick close, no appraisal and greater bargaining power.
I agree with you on the 1 agent per party rule. Too many horror stories from people that were on the buy side of a double ended deal. Fixed commissions not too sure as that would drive away the good talent. Many agents are not qualified to be a broker and do only see $$$$ signs. They are the ones that get themselves and their client in trouble. A good hands on broker is invaluable. Again, a lot of horror stories from my wife about dealing with agents that can barely spell but they look good in a skirt.
 
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npsp

Miki Dora status
Dec 30, 2003
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I think the buyers model will change to a flat fee plus a commission if the sale completes. You have to incentivize making the sale, but you also have to pay them for the legwork even if the sale doesn't go through. Thanks to zillow and redfin and such, not much of the "legroom" is the agent driving you around to look at houses any more, thank God.

Whatever the case may be, there's gonna be a big shakeup. IIRC something like 20% of realtors make 80% of the money as is.
I could see the flat fee and commission on close model working. You're probably right with your 80/20 split. It's a crazy business and you can do really well if you're smart and put in the effort. Once my wife went at it fulltime a few years back, she's been very successful.
 

Driftcoast

Michael Peterson status
Aug 5, 2002
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I wonder what this settlement means for the Real Estate world. Anybody in the Real Estate business out there that can explain what this means for the way they work moving forward???? I actually had a real estate client a couple of months ago mention that they were considering closing one or two of their offices and they were waiting on the outcome of this matter. The traditional brick and mortar real estate office seems to be going the way of the dinosaur perhaps.

RE agents are middlemen scum. Mostly. Some are ok. Maybe 20% are ok. Like car salepeople.
 
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StuAzole

Duke status
Jan 22, 2016
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You're overstating the ease of a transaction. Based on what you've posted, you are an attorney of some sort so it may be easier for you to understand and negotiate a transaction than it is for others.
My wife works with high net worth clients who don't have the time to look at Zillow much less traipse around on weekends looking at a dozen houses. Then you have those in academia that are particularly clueless when it comes to negotiating transactions. It's soup to nuts.....
Yes, I know a buyer would not use a mass market firm for the buy side. The seller's agent often needs to be onsite before and after the inspection and for other visits. Doesn't work well when they are a hundred miles away and not motivated by their low commission.... This has happened more than once with my wife on transactions. In the end, the sellers felt bad for my wife because she shouldered most of the load to get the deal closed.
A good seller's agent is great at putting lipstick on a pig and staging. It takes a good buyer's agent to see through the makeup. I love previewing houses with my wife and picking out all the stuff that is lipstick and what will be called out in the inspection if it gets that far. What shakes out from the inspection is the real meat and potatoes and often dictates how the deal will go, if at all. Additionally, a good buyer's agent is also most likely a good seller's agent and has contacts for the trades so they know how much it will really cost to repair those items called out on the report. Is the cut rate seller's agent going to be through on the final walk through to make sure all repairs were done correctly? Does the cut rate agent have trades people on call should something seem off and need to be verified? Once those contingencies are removed, it's game over to get anything fixed or back out without losing your deposit.
lol, your high net worth transactions are a tiny percentage of total volume. They’re irrelevant to the larger discussion.

But really? CAR forms have like 15 lines to fill in and the rest is almost never negotiated. Address, price, 17 day inspection, FATCO for title and escrow, loan contingency or no, closing date. Done.

Im most curious about your theory on cut rate agents. With this change, EVERY agent will need to compete on fees. It happens in land brokerage, and in commercial brokerage, so why not residential? Your wife may elect to keep her fee at 3% and maybe people will still pay it. It may signal she’s a star, worthy of a higher fee. But if everyone else cuts to 1%, she’s going to lose a lot of clients.

I know of a very successful agent out of RSF who just took a beach-front listing in Carlsbad for 1.5%. It got her the deal. Thats how it’s going to go on the buy side now too. Really, it’s the buyer agents who are going to see the biggest cut if buyers end up paying the fee.

It’s no longer about Redfin and Zillow. The whole structure is about to change and it’s going to spell trouble for anyone who can’t produce volume or establish themselves as an agent worth the extra scratch.

All that talk about what agents do is nice, but we both know the hardest part of being a broker is landing the listing/buyer in the first place, not the transaction itself. I’m not saying they don’t deserve compensation, but I am saying 3% is way too much. But we’ll see - maybe I’m wrong and agents will be able to negotiate even higher fees now, but I doubt it.

If residential real estate brokerage required any sort of intelligence it wouldn’t be filled with high-school educated surfers. No offense.
 

Driftcoast

Michael Peterson status
Aug 5, 2002
3,467
957
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Actually, the buyer's agent is working for the buyer. It is the buyer's agents responsibility to negotiate the best deal for the buyer. This includes credits for needed repairs called out in the inspection, $$$ for rent back, closing costs, etc... It's the buyer's agents job to squeeze every bit of juice out of the lemon and the seller's agents job to keep as much juice in as possible.

Too bad they don't do this.
 

Muscles

Michael Peterson status
Jun 1, 2013
2,599
3,607
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California/Hawaii
Will your lawyer be present for inspections? If so, what is their hourly rate for this 4-8 hour event? How much will they charge you to read and interpret the inspection report?
Do people actually trust agents with this?

Most agents couldn't tell you what voltage a home runs on or the difference between PEX and PVC.
 

slipped_disc

Billy Hamilton status
Jun 27, 2019
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Does anyone think this will impact immediate inventory?

on one hand, real estate agents will be pushing ppl to sell now — before commissions go down. Homeowners, on the other hand, will want to wait until July to avoid the fee.

maybe a wash altogether?
 

Muscles

Michael Peterson status
Jun 1, 2013
2,599
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California/Hawaii
My home inspector missed something huge. And he came at the recommendation of my agent. He messed up so bad he ended up giving me my money back plus 50% before I even asked for it. The whole system is a joke. I found it months after closing. Inspectors have a vested interest in not blowing up deals if they want to keep getting business.

After buying a very expensive home I realized the only person you can trust is yourself and independent third parties that don't depend on the deal or the RE industry to get business.
 

StuAzole

Duke status
Jan 22, 2016
28,573
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My home inspector missed something huge. And he came at the recommendation of my agent. He messed up so bad he ended up giving me my money back plus 50% before I even asked for it. The whole system is a joke. I found it months after closing. Inspectors have a vested interest in not blowing up deals if they want to keep getting business.

After buying a very expensive home I realized the only person you can trust is yourself and independent third parties that don't depend on the deal or the RE industry to get business.
A good seller will provide an inspection up front and identify what he has or hasnt fixed. Between that and a buyer inspection you should catch almost everything. But if you want true piece of mind and warranty you have to buy new.
 
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StuAzole

Duke status
Jan 22, 2016
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Does anyone think this will impact immediate inventory?

on one hand, real estate agents will be pushing ppl to sell now — before commissions go down. Homeowners, on the other hand, will want to wait until July to avoid the fee.

maybe a wash altogether?
You can negotiate now.

But it won’t be an impactful event for home prices. A seller may net a bit more, but a buyer paying a fee now will likely offer a bit less so it should all come out pretty even.
 

Mr Pecker

OTF status
Nov 6, 2021
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Corporations buying single family homes - I don't see the long term success of that.
If you look at the annual income and expenses reports done by IREM (Institute Of Real Estate Management) which collects the data from apartment mangers and owners all over the country you'll see that when treating a property like you would treat a CD (what is my % return on investment if I do no work or management at all myself) about 45% of Gross Rental Income goes to expenses, some of which take 20 years to accrue, such as replacement of a boiler.

An appraiser uses these reports to do an income based appraisal like this: $3500 per month rent x 12 = $42,000 per year Gross Income – (42,000*.45=18,000) = $24,000 net income. Next question is how much cash would we be willing to invest to get a return of 24K? Apartments are riskier than long term treasuries (the “No Risk Rate”) so let’s say 6% for an apartment building. So 24,000/.06=400,000. So if we bought the building for $400,000 we would get a 6% return. I’m getting 5% on a CD right now.

The appraiser will also use two other methods, comparable sales value and replacement value. Replacement value is (land value + the cost to build new) less the depreciation due to the age of the building. The three methods will usually come out closer together than you would think then be averaged to come up with an appraisal value. And no – there’s no prospective appreciation in value in that math.

In my experience the more units in the building the more the above holds true. 100 unit buildings are bought by real investors. When you get under 8 or 10 units retail investors who don’t know the rules start buying. 3 Family houses and down are really retail and usually make no sense price wise according to the above. So I would say that historically retail investors and owner-occupiers have kept professionals out of one to three family houses just by being willing to pay more. Maybe these companies are forecasting never ending appreciation and pretending that the depreciation they are deducting from income is not real and that’s how they make it make sense financially. Or maybe they couldn’t find any apartment buildings to buy?
[/QUOTE ]
Those are all good points. These guys are buying up all 3/2 and 4/2 in working class neighborhoods. That's where the housing shortage is. Generally they are not subject to rent controls so that is huge. They are also not stuck with inclusionary housing requirements that new developments are- which often makes it hard to pencil out with attractive numbers. I think they are probably going to make out ok.

I keeping hearing what a pain real estate is though. Just heard it again last week from a lawyer touting the virtues of equities etc. There are none of carrying costs like, prop management, maintenance, or liability risk, etc.. She swears the returns are always greater in the market and usually faster but I have seen plenty of grand slams in real estate too.

Just dont buy those small 10-20 unit apartments with an elevator. Elevators will kill your returns.
 

Mr Pecker

OTF status
Nov 6, 2021
221
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My home inspector missed something huge. And he came at the recommendation of my agent. He messed up so bad he ended up giving me my money back plus 50% before I even asked for it. The whole system is a joke. I found it months after closing. Inspectors have a vested interest in not blowing up deals if they want to keep getting business.

After buying a very expensive home I realized the only person you can trust is yourself and independent third parties that don't depend on the deal or the RE industry to get business.
Better than crawling under the house yourself, but yes they are a waste. Especially when each section obsolves them of liability with a clause that says "to get a professional opinion you should always consult a licensed plumber, electrician, engineer, etc."