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Volume Forward Performance Boards
- Thread starter Lohena
- Start date
Hey Maz,
Thanks for posting this, I'm definitely interested in what he has to say. But all the free vids I'm finding on his website are just come-ons to buy his in person or online courses (which are not cheap!) Are there particular vids on YouTube you found useful, or ones I'm not seeing on his site?
Glad you found that useful! Here are some of my thoughts on all of these topics now:
Paddling Injury:
As I’m getting older, and have existing chronic repetitive stress injuries, I should probably be more concerned about getting long-term pain/injuries from paddling. Not strictly from a wave catching point of view, but just becoming more efficient to reduce fatigue and potential injury. I’m actually thinking about visiting Rob or sending over a video at some point next year just to have somebody check my technique for deficiencies.
Wave Catching:
The most eye-opening part of Rob’s discussions/podcasts has really been about how little actual paddling is needed to catch waves (Check out a cool video series of his here:
Think about this, take a mental survey of waves you miss or blow along with all the waves you see other surfers missing or blowing. Are the majority of those waves missed because people are trying to take off on a too flat part of a wave face by being out of position (either too far out or on the shoulder), or are they blown because people take off too late in a very steep part of a wave and get pitched? From my experience, the answer is definitely the former, which typically leads to people thinking they need more “paddle power.” I’m thinking that really people need to position themselves better to utilize the force of gravity and stop paddling so hard for waves they are out of position for.
Board Design:
Back to the discussion I started in this thread! That research article was super interesting, thanks for posting that. I guess the conclusion is that volume forward doesn’t help or hurt paddling because, somewhat obviously, surfers just adjust their position to maintain the same balance point on the board. I’m guessing this would probably apply for wave catching also because you’re positioned more forward on a volume forward board. There’s so many other elements of a board such as rocker and overall volume that contribute to wave catching it is hard to isolate just one thing without doing studies such as the one above.
Actually, NVM. I see that there's a lot of short, free vids on his YouTube page. Very interesting info! I've clearly been doing a lot of things wrong with my paddling. Over-reaching and all its consequences seems like an obvious culprit...
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No-that makes. had to up size my fish length 3 inches and that helped me a lot. I go a bit longer but narrower and thinner to make up for more length now. I got mid size twin to pick up anyway from local shaper as well for same reason.
Was going to find the videos I'd gotten the most out of, but it sounds like you're on your way. Just keep fossicking around.
In terms of normal paddling (not sprinting to catch a wave), just focusing on keeping my elbow higher and not overreaching has made a huge difference, as you also mention. And the two are connected, aye!
I had a bit of an epiphany the other day, paddling back in from my local (700yd paddle) into a gale headwind. I was a bit tired, and it's usually torture in those conditions, but I made a real effort to maintain proper form, and it almost felt like I was paddling downhill.
There are a lot of incorrect statements in this video.
His estimate of wave speed is wrong, though I agree it is still fast. It is not based on the height it is based on the water depth.
Phase wave speed = sqrt (gravity * depth in meters) for the shallow approximation. If you assume gravity ~10m/s^2.
I agree it is still fast.
Waves break in approximately twice their water depth. A 1-meter wave (waist high) breaks in 2 meters water depth. A 2-meter (head high) wave breaks in 4m water depth. It is still valid for reefs and sand bars, except it is more abrupt. If the slope was constant it would break at that depth. Sand bars cause the wave to non-linearly increase quickly.
So a 2m water breaking in 4m water results in a phase speed of sqrt(10*4) ~6 m/s or 12 mph. An Olympic swimmer for the 50m swims this in about 22s so about 2m/s so this is 3 times faster!
Hence the bigger wave, the farther offshore it breaks, and the faster the wave is moving - though it will be slowing as it propagates to shore.
Waves in shallow water no longer have vertical orbital excursion - they are solely horizontal. There are NO orbits, yes the plunge looks like an orbit but this the crest is falling.
The reason waves break, is based on the equation above, phase speed of the wave slows down in shallower water. What happens it the orbital velocity (or the velocity at the crest of the wave) exceeds the wave phase speed, and becomes unstable and breaks and this instability occurs at about twice the water depth.
The type of wave (spilling, plunging, surging) depend on the wave height, the wave period, and the beach slope or the slope of the bar/reef.
His estimate of wave speed is wrong, though I agree it is still fast. It is not based on the height it is based on the water depth.
Phase wave speed = sqrt (gravity * depth in meters) for the shallow approximation. If you assume gravity ~10m/s^2.
I agree it is still fast.
Waves break in approximately twice their water depth. A 1-meter wave (waist high) breaks in 2 meters water depth. A 2-meter (head high) wave breaks in 4m water depth. It is still valid for reefs and sand bars, except it is more abrupt. If the slope was constant it would break at that depth. Sand bars cause the wave to non-linearly increase quickly.
So a 2m water breaking in 4m water results in a phase speed of sqrt(10*4) ~6 m/s or 12 mph. An Olympic swimmer for the 50m swims this in about 22s so about 2m/s so this is 3 times faster!
Hence the bigger wave, the farther offshore it breaks, and the faster the wave is moving - though it will be slowing as it propagates to shore.
Waves in shallow water no longer have vertical orbital excursion - they are solely horizontal. There are NO orbits, yes the plunge looks like an orbit but this the crest is falling.
The reason waves break, is based on the equation above, phase speed of the wave slows down in shallower water. What happens it the orbital velocity (or the velocity at the crest of the wave) exceeds the wave phase speed, and becomes unstable and breaks and this instability occurs at about twice the water depth.
The type of wave (spilling, plunging, surging) depend on the wave height, the wave period, and the beach slope or the slope of the bar/reef.
the depth a wave touches the bottom is directly related to its period.
wave period also affects the speed the wave is moving.
not saying some of your numbers aren’t often true on average but consideration of period is the prime aspect of how fast they are moving and when they will feel bottom and eventually tip (break), iirc.
wave period also affects the speed the wave is moving.
not saying some of your numbers aren’t often true on average but consideration of period is the prime aspect of how fast they are moving and when they will feel bottom and eventually tip (break), iirc.
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There are a lot, a lot of studies that show "depth-limited" breaking. We use this from video to infer the water depth. We also use this to map the bottom for satellite images.
The wave period is related to the phase speed as well as the depth, that why the instability occurs at the depth-limited breaking ratio.
The type is also dependent upon the wave period and wave height - through the Irrabarean number H/L/sqrt (beach slope), where H is the wave height and L is the wave length.
I agree the wave phase is defined as C=g/sigma*tanh(kh), where C is wave speed, g is gravity, sigma = 2.*pi/T, tanh (hyperbolic tangent), k is 2*pi/L where k is the wave number and L is the wave length. This is the true solution! C=sqrt(g*h) is the shallow water approximation.
The longer wave travel fastest in the open ocean, but they are the first to reach the shallow water approximation and often before wave breaking. The shorter period waves travel slower, and many times can still be in intermediate water at breaking.
This why the longer period swell reach the coast before the storms!
They tip over because the crest velocity exceeds the wave phase speed.
We refer to the wave breaking ratio as also the saturation. The wave height can exceed this ratio and the wave height will scale with the water depth after breaking
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Check out this video where he goes into it in more detail. At 10 mins he talks about various paddling speeds, then wave speed at around 17 mins. Sounds similar to what you're taking about with depth and topography. I'm not sure if that is the same data in the spreadsheet in the other video though.
Regardless, point is we cannot paddle even close to fast enough to catch a wave.
100% agree - can't paddle the wave speed! I know waves, but relatively new to surfing. I don't understand volume benefits because we can reach the wave speed! Yes paddling out, etc is easier with volume, but wave catching based on my understanding is independent of volume. Yet many people say volume is your friend
!He is still figuring it out in this video but he is getting closer and this more accurate.
Refraction is the bending of the wave angle due to bottom contours. This unfortunate for surfers on sandy beaches, as many waves refract a lot so much so that there tends to be little peel angle. If there is a peel angle, then the beach sediment transport kicks in will try morphodynamically realign to match the wave angle (such that it eventually closes out). This takes time, so the more variety in storm directions the less the beach can come to an equilibrium with the wave. The good for when waves tend to close-out, these are the conditions for rip channels, so the beach creates a variability in breaking naturally in these conditions. This is why Monterey has lot of rip channel systems.
Refraction is great thing for point breaks because it bends the wave toward shallower water allowing for the wave breaking process to continue along the wave.
Refraction is good for submarine canyons as it creates focusing - hence blacks is because of the canyon effects.
Waves are super cool!
I turned it down in the end, but I got Fulbright Fellowship to go to New Zealand to study artificial surfing reefs with Kerry Black. A better career opportunity presented itself, maybe not a life experience opportunity, though I am extremely happy in where I am at.
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I think he's has miscalculated on when Ho goes from hull speed (subject to hydrostatic forces) to planing speed (using hydrodynamic forces).
agree on the importance of sprint strokes.
thats made the biggest diff to me- concentrating on acceleration in those sprint strokes.
that gets you way more set waves than focusing on paddling endurance.
I think the Ghost is the best board I've ever had at moving from hull speed to planing speed and why it feels so sure-footed knifing into hollow waves.
agree on the importance of sprint strokes.
thats made the biggest diff to me- concentrating on acceleration in those sprint strokes.
that gets you way more set waves than focusing on paddling endurance.
I think the Ghost is the best board I've ever had at moving from hull speed to planing speed and why it feels so sure-footed knifing into hollow waves.
Care to expand on how beach slope affects waves?
“The type of wave (spilling, plunging, surging) depend on the wave height, the wave period, and the beach slope or the slope of the bar/reef.”
I know waves are bigger in more slopey beaches Vs flat ones. But what else♂.
my local develops these “ondulations” along the shore. Kinda look like little hills...but they don’t neccessarily make for better waves. Is usually better between 10-12 secs. I’ll try to post a pic tomorrow.
“The type of wave (spilling, plunging, surging) depend on the wave height, the wave period, and the beach slope or the slope of the bar/reef.”
I know waves are bigger in more slopey beaches Vs flat ones. But what else♂.
my local develops these “ondulations” along the shore. Kinda look like little hills...but they don’t neccessarily make for better waves. Is usually better between 10-12 secs. I’ll try to post a pic tomorrow.
Whatever may be true on the wave speed equations discussed above, here is a fact I observed for myself this evening:
I watched a few of Rob's videos, and then paddled out at crappy Topanga, on a lower volumed board than what I normally ride, and caught more waves in a shorter amount of time than what would normally have occurred.
Just a few simple tips - not over reaching, pushing BACK, not DOWN, focusing on staying horizontal - made a huge difference. I caught more waves than I expected, and got into them earlier than expected (so much so that I repeatedly found myself surprised, "Oh! I already caught this!")
Clearly, Rob is onto something with his approach to paddling. I noticed a difference with just a superficial study of his material. Now I am keen to learn more, and may just have to sign up for one of his online courses. Results speak.
Sorry to sort of hijack the thread here, but this is a game changer for me (and I've been surfing far longer than I'd care to admit...)
Also, btw, this. Very noticeable difference on the Ghost. And that's when I was paddling wrong! What's gonna happen now?
freeride and Retropete, he surfs great. Getting the chest muscles off the deck is how I paddle and it feels more efficient than chest slumped on the board. However I think arching the lower back can cause problems. I have described my situation on the "myths about lower back pain" aka the squats and deadlifts cure everything thread in the doc forum. However, here it is again with reference to Kale's paddling with a back arched like a banana tutorial.
A massage therapist who I used to get deep tissue massage from noticed that I was "hyper-extending" my back - his words for arching it too much, presumably from surfing. I don't know how he could tell, but he wasn't a surfer so didn't have a suggestion on how to correct technique.
So I paid attention to how I was catching waves and paddling and noticed that in that explosive paddle for a wave situation I did have a tendency to arch my lower back with stomach pressed onto the deck. So I focused on keeping some stomach muscle tension in that situation to balance out the tension of the lower back muscles. I took this further with paddling and trained myself to keep some stomach muscle tension so that my stomach was not pressed against the deck when paddling. The massage therapist was able to confirm that I had rectified the problem, so I must be on the right track (for myself at least, we all have our different problems/physique characteristics).
This was some years ago and I saw this thread yesterday and remembered it this morning when I went for a surf - I did a self check on how I was paddling and pleased to note that I had incorporated this stomach tension technique into my normal paddling subconscious and don't need to think about it any more.
If we are to examine closely Kale's instruction in that vid he did say something like arch from the mid back, not just the upper back. For me that advice is not specific enough - I really needed to concentrate on getting the mid back curved upwards to clear the pec muscles off the deck while stopping my lower back from curving. I used to get back problems, but its fine now, so this approach is working for me. I am surfing a lot nowadays too - 3 to 4 days a week, 2 sessions in a day. I am not a strong paddler though, although I would hope that I am at least fit with all that exercise!