Volume Forward Performance Boards

jkb

Phil Edwards status
Feb 22, 2005
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I was thinking about this the other day while paddling around.

When you have a volume forward board and it thins out considerably towards the tail, I feel like the tail of the board is hanging lower in the water while paddling, increasing drag.

If you have more volume rearward, the aft end of the board will provide more lift allowing a paddling position that's closer to horizontal with the water surface, thereby reducing paddling drag.

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LifeOnMars

Legend (inyourownmind)
Jan 14, 2020
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I was thinking about this the other day while paddling around.

When you have a volume forward board and it thins out considerably towards the tail, I feel like the tail of the board is hanging lower in the water while paddling, increasing drag.

If you have more volume rearward, the aft end of the board will provide more lift allowing a paddling position that's closer to horizontal with the water surface, thereby reducing paddling drag.
doesn't seem to be the case in reality, have a few ghost style boards and they paddle and handle late drops better than a driver style rocker.
 
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Lohena

OTF status
Oct 30, 2019
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doesn't seem to be the case in reality, have a few ghost style boards and they paddle and handle late drops better than a driver style rocker.
Both entry rocker and more volume forward (that which makes a board paddle less horizontally) creates drag. For most waves either one of those things should make catching waves harder, although drag is probably good when knifing steep drops to slow down and keep from pearling. Aruka made a good point on needing more volume forward on low entry rockers, ie Ghost etc..
 
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Lohena

OTF status
Oct 30, 2019
202
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I was thinking about this the other day while paddling around.

When you have a volume forward board and it thins out considerably towards the tail, I feel like the tail of the board is hanging lower in the water while paddling, increasing drag.

If you have more volume rearward, the aft end of the board will provide more lift allowing a paddling position that's closer to horizontal with the water surface, thereby reducing paddling drag.

View attachment 98002
I agree for paddling for sure and for catching most waves.

It's probably a whole other discussion on how a board rides depending on where the volume is placed. More volume closer to the tail would be better for paddling, catching waves, and generating speed, but hurt on performance maybe?
 
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SlicedFeet

Miki Dora status
Dec 17, 2004
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Swarm Diego
I absolutely hate boards with volume forward. Always have. We each surf different though.

I was so pissed one time a shaper thought he’d put more volume up front because I am barrel chested. That board sucked. I’d bog and bury the tail and back rails on turns and have no speed. Then the boards nose was always popping up.

Also remember trying out a longboard with more volume up front. That sucked too, I suppose unless you want to only ride it on the nose.

Pefectly foiled or a touch more volume in the rear for $1000 Alex please.
 
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jkb

Phil Edwards status
Feb 22, 2005
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doesn't seem to be the case in reality, have a few ghost style boards and they paddle and handle late drops better than a driver style rocker.
You're comparing a low entry widepoint forward board with a higher entry widepoint back board. Entry rocker is also an important component in the equation.

So I think the question is, if you moved the foam more rearward in a Ghost would it paddle the same/better/worse? We all know it would surf completely different, but that's neither here nor there for this conversation.
 
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LifeOnMars

Legend (inyourownmind)
Jan 14, 2020
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You're comparing a low entry widepoint forward board with a higher entry widepoint back board. Entry rocker is also an important component in the equation.

So I think the question is, if you moved the foam more rearward in a Ghost would it paddle the same/better/worse? We all know it would surf completely different, but that's neither here nor there for this conversation.
The tail on the ghost is about as thin as it gets, paddles like a dream in hpsb dims ( 6'1" x 19 x 2.56 @ 29.5L).
I just try to not overthink things, paralysis by analysis isn't a good way to go about things
 
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doc_flavonoid

OTF status
Dec 27, 2019
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I like the concept. Rarely even see them being used.

Maybe it’s just that experimentation in the type of surf they are made for tends to be incremental
increments of fear

fairly regular sight in cen-norcal winters. they are paddle beasts and deliver my own personal wave of the winter each year.

only relevant here because i can't think of a more hp gun
 

Maz

Billy Hamilton status
May 18, 2004
1,530
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Innzid
You're comparing a low entry widepoint forward board with a higher entry widepoint back board. Entry rocker is also an important component in the equation.

So I think the question is, if you moved the foam more rearward in a Ghost would it paddle the same/better/worse? We all know it would surf completely different, but that's neither here nor there for this conversation.
The volume 'centre of mass' on the Ghost forces you to lie on the straighter, glide-y, part of the rocker. At least that's how it feels to me, and how I think about it.

Imagine a Lost Driver with a super thin tail and lots of volume forward: in order to be balanced while paddling, you'd be pushing water.
 

Maz

Billy Hamilton status
May 18, 2004
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Innzid
So I’ve recently listened to some podcasts that make me question whether volume forward boards are really helping.

First there was a discussion about grovelers (and a thread about that podcast on this forum) where the shaper from Volcan discussed how having volume forward boards make catching waves harder. Rather they lift you up the face vs dropping you down the wave. He recommends more volume in the tail to provide lift in the tail to get to planing speed quicker. Seems to make a lot of sense.


Another podcast from a paddling coach discuss the physics of wave catching. Basically it is futile to try to think you can paddle fast enough to catch a wave, so we need to think of using the force of gravity and reduce drag to catch a wave by taking off on steeper parts. This also seems to support the idea that having more volume up front would make catching waves harder.

It seems totally logical that having a board that dropped down the wave faster and lifted its tail to get to planing speed quicker would make it easier to catch waves and generate speed out of the gate. It also seems like a volume forward board would inhibit this by pushing you up the wave and reduc acceleration from gravity, as well as keeping your board from planing quicker and increasing drag.


Any thoughts on this?
Lohena, I just wanted to say thank you for pointing me in the direction of Rob Case. My shoulders have been totally fcuked, with intense bursitis pain in both, and my paddling has always been crap to average.

I watched all the videos (just the free stuff, haha) and three days ago made a massive effort to change my technique. Huge difference! My shoulder pain is all but gone, I paddle faster. And now I feel a pleasant soreness in my lats and pecs, meaning I'm using the bigger muscles, rather than punishing my ageing rotator cuff muscles.

Very grateful.
 

jkb

Phil Edwards status
Feb 22, 2005
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The volume 'centre of mass' on the Ghost forces you to lie on the straighter, glide-y, part of the rocker. At least that's how it feels to me, and how I think about it.

Imagine a Lost Driver with a super thin tail and lots of volume forward: in order to be balanced while paddling, you'd be pushing water.
I see what you're saying.

The problem I have a hard time rectifying in my head is where most of our weight is distributed while paddling (somewhere around our waist), and we're often doing little micro adjustments with our knees by pushing down on the board for paddling balance and to help with quick directional changes. You move the volume of a board forward and that allows the waist to sink even deeper.

But to your point, we adjust our paddling position forward to get to a more efficient planning surface now.......but also to compensate for that lack of volume in the waist area. If you're moving forward on the board, you're putting more board behind you and increasing the volume rearward.
 
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Sharkbiscuit

Tom Curren status
Aug 6, 2003
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Jacksonville Beach
You're comparing a low entry widepoint forward board with a higher entry widepoint back board. Entry rocker is also an important component in the equation.
handle late drops better than a driver style rocker.
IMHO that's all the (Sub) Driver's tail rocker. What makes it mental when you push on it on rail in open-faced surf does not like knifing late drops in jacking dumpers. It's going to cla-clunk from the ledge to the flat in hyper-compact pits.

The Pyzels sound like all of them have the rocker to handle mutating Ehukai, but they aren't what you'd bring to chase down drop-ins at waist high Malibu.
 
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