Universal Basic Income

Feb 24, 2021
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Grocery store workers began a two tier pay scale in the 80's. The older workers made double the new hires.

There was none of the calamity as predicted, proving once and for all that a worker will take as much as they can get, but the next worker making more does not effect the lower waged worker.

See also women in the workplace.
 

StuAzole

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Jan 22, 2016
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I would say that the elasticity is up to $5.00 per hour max. A worker making $20 an hour is not impacted by another making $15.

A semi skilled burger flipper will want 50 cents to a dollar more than a new hire, but that is the extent of it.

There is demonstrable proof of this. A burger flipper wage will top out at say $17 an hour at a premium burger flipping establishment like in-n-out. If McDonald's raises their wage to $15, the premier in-n-out flipper will not strike and demand a higher wage, more than a dollar or two. A toner copier salesman, at $25 an hour, will imagine himself superior when comparing himself, and still be satisfied. A sewer pipe scrubber @ $30 an hour, will in fact be superior to both the burger flipper and the G.E.D. holding toner salesman. The scrubber is satisfied knowing that even if he smells like shít at the end of the day, he is in a better caste than the other two, and the wage elasticity ends.
it actually has as much to do with th
I worked at KFC as a deep fry pressure cook in high school. Was trying to get a job as bus boy at Tony's on the Pier (would've been a gold mine compared). It was a hell job at times, but fun and good experience in others. Got to flirt with the order clerk girls from my and other high schools. Got work experience credit in school equal to 2 classes a day. Which meant many days out of school by noon, to either work or surf. Yeah. Those jobs were NEVER meant for raising a family with 2 kids or to buy a house. They were entry level to learn work experience. If you're 25-30 still working those type jobs, you need to re-think your strategies/priorities.

I could've worked my way up to be a manager type at KFC, but after seeing all the burn scares (splashing super hot oil) on the arms of the manager there, I decided to move on. Already had a few myself. Worked a stint installing speaker parts in a high end woodshop, just prior to my grunt construction days. All were just barely above minimum wage at first, until skill sets increased as I learned. Made up to $9 an hour in masonry in 1979 by age 21 and thought I was living large. But laid off, and re-thought my career path. Started over, making barely $5 an hr doing tape-ups for PCB designers artworks with my high school/community college art and mechanical drawing skills (before CAD, it was actually manual artwork), and learned my way up from there to today. All those jobs I was lucky to get only because I knew someone inside already, other than the PCB tape-up job which was from an ad in the Easy Reader (South Bay boyz know this one)

I was far from a protected, sheltered, spoiled silver spoon in mouth kid like most living near the beach (like many here today). We were living near poor standards compared to most of my surf buddies from more well heeled families. Dad was a disabled WWII vet working as a janitor at Redondo Post Office. Mom was the main breadwinner as a social worker (welfare eligibility worker) for LA county in San Pedro. They struggled to keep us well fed some years. We shopped at Salvation Army for clothes. Eating out once or twice a month was a luxury and treasured, even if it was just Bob's Big Boy. Vacations were rare other than Boy Scout camp trips. We did have a nice high end campground membership up in the mountains near Idyllwild that I inherited from mom and dad. That was our vacations in our teen years. Surfing was my escape.

Don't try to pin me as some elite with no apathy for economic struggle.
the thing is, the economic impacts of raising the minimum wage have been studied. Your feels arguments are both dumb and wrong.
 
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Aruka

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Feb 23, 2010
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Don't try to pin me as some elite with no apathy for economic struggle.
Don't worry, I think you have plenty of apathy for the economic struggle.

It's actually even more revealing that you grew up taking advantage of the social safety net and yet now you are against it.

And you are also against raising wages for the poorest workers in our country.

Your dad was a janitor which is, to use your own modern definition, an unskilled job. Just like the burger flipper who you regard with such disdain. Personally I think that both the janitor who cleans our buildings and "burger flipper" who prepares our food both deserve to be paid an inflation/production adjusted minimum wage. I would also push back on the "unskilled" label since it turns out that many of those very same jobs are in fact "essential".
 
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afoaf

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Jun 25, 2008
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there is no sound economic argument underlying any of this

Surfdog's argument is simply an extension of a cartoonish political trope that comes with no
historic or academic corroboration.

the shift to a service-based economy in the intervening years has exacerbated the wealth gap

middle class jobs as a percentage of overall jobs has declined

pay for the average job is 50-60% where it needs to support a middle class lifestyle

it always bothers me to see how strongly people will object to a measure like this, but
seem totally unbothered by similar economic manipulation which benefits a different
group of people.

based on his family history, you'd think Surfdog would have a stronger sense of solidarity
with the low-wage worker trying to bootstrap in this fkn rat race than corporate welfare
programs that benefit people who in no way shape or form resemble him or his family,
economically.
 

mundus

Duke status
Feb 26, 2018
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there is no sound economic argument underlying any of this

Surfdog's argument is simply an extension of a cartoonish political trope that comes with no
historic or academic corroboration.

the shift to a service-based economy in the intervening years has exacerbated the wealth gap

middle class jobs as a percentage of overall jobs has declined

pay for the average job is 50-60% where it needs to support a middle class lifestyle

it always bothers me to see how strongly people will object to a measure like this, but
seem totally unbothered by similar economic manipulation which benefits a different
group of people.

based on his family history, you'd think Surfdog would have a stronger sense of solidarity
with the low-wage worker trying to bootstrap in this fkn rat race than corporate welfare
programs that benefit people who in no way shape or form resemble him or his family,
economically.
Republicans and their sheep fight tooth and nail against anything that helps non millionaires. Not to mention Manchin and others coming from poor states blocking the minimum wage, yet still get elected.
 
Feb 24, 2021
56
51
18
I worked at KFC as a deep fry pressure cook in high school. Was trying to get a job as bus boy at Tony's on the Pier (would've been a gold mine compared). It was a hell job at times, but fun and good experience in others. Got to flirt with the order clerk girls from my and other high schools. Got work experience credit in school equal to 2 classes a day. Which meant many days out of school by noon, to either work or surf. Yeah. Those jobs were NEVER meant for raising a family with 2 kids or to buy a house. They were entry level to learn work experience. If you're 25-30 still working those type jobs, you need to re-think your strategies/priorities.

I could've worked my way up to be a manager type at KFC, but after seeing all the burn scares (splashing super hot oil) on the arms of the manager there, I decided to move on. Already had a few myself. Worked a stint installing speaker parts in a high end woodshop, just prior to my grunt construction days. All were just barely above minimum wage at first, until skill sets increased as I learned. Made up to $9 an hour in masonry in 1979 by age 21 and thought I was living large. But laid off, and re-thought my career path. Started over, making barely $5 an hr doing tape-ups for PCB designers artworks with my high school/community college art and mechanical drawing skills (before CAD, it was actually manual artwork), and learned my way up from there to today. All those jobs I was lucky to get only because I knew someone inside already, other than the PCB tape-up job which was from an ad in the Easy Reader (South Bay boyz know this one)

I was far from a protected, sheltered, spoiled silver spoon in mouth kid like most living near the beach (like many here today). We were living near poor standards compared to most of my surf buddies from more well heeled families. Dad was a disabled WWII vet working as a janitor at Redondo Post Office. Mom was the main breadwinner as a social worker (welfare eligibility worker) for LA county in San Pedro. They struggled to keep us well fed some years. We shopped at Salvation Army for clothes. Eating out once or twice a month was a luxury and treasured, even if it was just Bob's Big Boy. Vacations were rare other than Boy Scout camp trips. We did have a nice high end campground membership up in the mountains near Idyllwild that I inherited from mom and dad. That was our vacations in our teen years. Surfing was my escape.

Don't try to pin me as some elite with no apathy for economic struggle.
Sounds like you have mommy/ daddy issues. Maybe u could findReddit.com/r/lonely helpful
 

Surfdog

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Apr 22, 2001
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Surfdodge - constant state of cognitive dissonance. His mother supported the family via welfare, and he wants to pull up the ladder. Kiss up, kick down.
You don't read too well.

My mom WORKED for the LA county welfare system, deciding who got food stamps or not.

She had more than a few stories of the welfare queens with supposedly 10 kids pull up in a Caddy to collect her welfare check and food stamps (when they were still stamps)

She saw it all, first hand.

We never collected welfare or food stamps as far as I could tell. Dad paid his dues as a sergeant WWII POW in Japan, after surviving hell on Corregidor and the Death March. Dad had a few better jobs earlier, but got in 2 bad car accidents (none his fault) and kinda took him out a year or so between. He was also considered one of the best air brush artists on the west coast back in the 50's-early 60's. He built a little showcase in front of our house on Coast hwy for a bit. Sold some, but not a lot. Struggling artist, basically. But it was all good.

He taught me and my brother a lot, also how to protect ourselves and even take someone out (kill) with your bare hands if necessary. One reason why I never wanted to get in a bad fight, if I felt life threatened, I knew how to take a guy out in a few easy moves, with zero weapons other than hands.
 
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Surfdog

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Apr 22, 2001
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there is no sound economic argument underlying any of this

Surfdog's argument is simply an extension of a cartoonish political trope that comes with no
historic or academic corroboration.

the shift to a service-based economy in the intervening years has exacerbated the wealth gap

middle class jobs as a percentage of overall jobs has declined

pay for the average job is 50-60% where it needs to support a middle class lifestyle

it always bothers me to see how strongly people will object to a measure like this, but
seem totally unbothered by similar economic manipulation which benefits a different
group of people.

based on his family history, you'd think Surfdog would have a stronger sense of solidarity
with the low-wage worker trying to bootstrap in this fkn rat race than corporate welfare
programs that benefit people who in no way shape or form resemble him or his family,
economically.
Nobody Cares

Work Harder

If I can make, most anyone can.
 

Surfdog

Duke status
Apr 22, 2001
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Oceanside,CA
Don't worry, I think you have plenty of apathy for the economic struggle.

It's actually even more revealing that you grew up taking advantage of the social safety net and yet now you are against it.

And you are also against raising wages for the poorest workers in our country.

Your dad was a janitor which is, to use your own modern definition, an unskilled job. Just like the burger flipper who you regard with such disdain. Personally I think that both the janitor who cleans our buildings and "burger flipper" who prepares our food both deserve to be paid an inflation/production adjusted minimum wage. I would also push back on the "unskilled" label since it turns out that many of those very same jobs are in fact "essential".
Meant to say empathy, not apathy. It was late.
 

Kento

Duke status
Jan 11, 2002
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Getting rid of the American cultural trend of keeping your wages secret from your peers would do wonders to help out you collectivists
Every good libertarian sides with big government with their posting and general adherence to GSA rates. :jamon:
 

enframed

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Apr 11, 2006
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My mom WORKED for the LA county welfare system, deciding who got food stamps or not.

She had more than a few stories of the welfare queens with supposedly 10 kids pull up in a Caddy to collect her welfare check and food stamps (when they were still stamps)

She saw it all, first hand.
I bet she also had thousands of stories of legit families needing help, too. Those aren't very interesting though.

There's always gonna be some bad apples, always. The good ones should not suffer because of the very few bad ones. This is a grade school mentality, "Johnny was bad so no recess for anyone" kinda bullshit. I;'d be willing to bet that the amount of "cheating" going on in welfare systems in the US is close to if not "immaterial," to use the words generally accepted accounting principles.
 
Feb 24, 2021
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Nobody Cares

Work Harder

If I can make, most anyone can.
So the story is he had two wonderful parents who showered him in love. His daddy taught him to kill with his bare hands. (You forgot to log in as Duffy.)

And yet at the same time, he was given no better head start than a kid born to a heroin addicted mother and no father; a kid born in war torn Africa; a gang ruled barrio in Mexico.

Toughest time in his life was frying chicken at a KFC. Dude has zero idea of what real hardship is.

Thinks it's tough because he got a cooking oil splash on his arm. Compare that to a guy who had his babies feet cut off because he didn't mine enough diamonds that day. Compare that to a little girl who got raped by her daddy, because mommy wasn't pretty anymore.
 
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Surfdog

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I bet she also had thousands of stories of legit families needing help, too. Those aren't very interesting though.

There's always gonna be some bad apples, always. The good ones should not suffer because of the bad ones. This is a grade school mentality, "Johnny was bad so no recess for anyone" kinda bullshit.
I've NEVER advocated removal, reductions in economic safety nets. They're worthy social programs.

It's when they become generational in dependence, is where I'd like to see a line drawn.

Minimum wage does need to go up, but doubling nationwide?
Some states like coastal CA? $15 is probably not even enough.

In BF Egypt Kansas, Nebraska, Arkansas and similar? Probably doesn't need to be.
Small business in those states probably couldn't afford it and stay afloat.

I can see a national rate of maybe $9-10 an hr as a base. But states should be left to decide higher (which many have).

Minimum wage was meant to protect kids from being paid slave wages. It was never meant to be a "living wage".
 

afoaf

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Jun 25, 2008
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You don't read too well.

My mom WORKED for the LA county welfare system, deciding who got food stamps or not.

She had more than a few stories of the welfare queens with supposedly 10 kids pull up in a Caddy to collect her welfare check and food stamps (when they were still stamps)

She saw it all, first hand.

We never collected welfare or food stamps as far as I could tell. Dad paid his dues as a sergeant WWII POW in Japan, after surviving hell on Corregidor and the Death March. Dad had a few better jobs earlier, but got in 2 bad car accidents (none his fault) and kinda took him out a year or so between. He was also considered one of the best air brush artists on the west coast back in the 50's-early 60's. He built a little showcase in front of our house on Coast hwy for a bit. Sold some, but not a lot. Struggling artist, basically. But it was all good.

He taught me and my brother a lot, also how to protect ourselves and even take someone out (kill) with your bare hands if necessary. One reason why I never wanted to get in a bad fight, if I felt life threatened, I knew how to take a guy out in a few easy moves, with zero weapons other than hands.
did you read Escape from Davao?

that was some real heavy sh!t
 

Surfdog

Duke status
Apr 22, 2001
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Oceanside,CA
So the story is he had two wonderful parents who showered him in love. His daddy taught him to kill with his bare hands. (You forgot to log in as Duffy.)

And yet at the same time, he was given no better head start than a kid born to a heroin addicted mother and no father; a kid born in war torn Africa; a gang ruled barrio in Mexico.

Toughest time in his life was frying chicken at a KFC. Dude has zero idea of what real hardship is.
I was lucky. And frying chicken at KFC was fun compared to other grunt jobs had. Yes, I was VERY fortunate dad decided to try and move to the coast, after living inland San Gabriel valley as a little kid. I could've easily ended up a low-rider gang banger if we stayed inland. Born in downtown LA in China Town (French Hospital). Parents struggled early on (early 60's), bought a house in La Puente, then lost it (BK). Moved from rental to rental, some apartments.

Sometimes we ate fried corn meal or oatmeal only for breakfast, and Hamburger Helper for dinner. We never complained. We had something to eat each day and ate what mom made. I NEVER ate at the school cafeteria. My parents couldn't afford the 35 cents for lunch. Mom packed lunch EVERYDAY. I think I ate at the school cafeteria ONCE, and it actually kinda sucked.

Ya, most people in the world have it WAY worse than us. USA is the dream destination for the world. Everyone deserves a chance, but do it legally and be welcomed with open arms. Get some skills and contribute to that dream.