The Official Wine Thread!

[_____]

That pic is a good example is why some wines are so damn expensive in CA. You get someone who pays like $10m for a vineyard and they build an elaborate facility and tasting room, picnic area etc and are up to their eyeballs in debt. How much of the price of that bottle goes towards their loan payment? In Spain, Italy, France, etc where properties have been owned outright for like a century or more, a lot of stuff is made the exact same way and you pay a fraction of the cost even after it ships to the states. The dumbest thing about that pic is about 1-2(?) acres of grass bank on prime vineyard land that costs a grip to maintain and doesn't serve a purpose, and they could have planted vines there instead. Some of the cost of every bottle of Opus bought pays for that lawn.

 

[enframed]

Hard to justify indeed. Napa is way too expensive, generally speaking. IMO, for value in Napa, check out Coombsville AVA like Farella, and then there's Frog's Leap which is very very, VERY good wine, and not the price of others. The name is passe, but the wine is stellar. Blue Rock in Alexander Valley (Sonoma) is great cabs and blends, LongMeadow Ranch in St Helena is decent. Shafer, Cain is decent but a bit pricey.

 

[enframed]

That pic is a good example is why some wines are so damn expensive in CA. You get someone who pays like $10m for a vineyard and they build an elaborate facility and tasting room, picnic area etc and are up to their eyeballs in debt. How much of the price of that bottle goes towards their loan payment? In Spain, Italy, France, etc where properties have been owned outright for like a century or more, a lot of stuff is made the exact same way and you pay a fraction of the cost even after it ships to the states. The dumbest thing about that pic is about 1-2(?) acres of grass bank on prime vineyard land that costs a grip to maintain and doesn't serve a purpose, and they could have planted vines there instead. Some of the cost of every bottle of Opus bought pays for that lawn.

This is correct.

 

[Goodfish]

Oh, good thread! You guys over in California are spoilt for choice. So many delicious grape juices over there...

Here, if I want something reliable I go for an Australian shiraz as they usually hit the spot. French wines are amazing in France, but they become really crap here. At least to my immature taste.

Recently I was sucked into this by the marketing...



Thankfully it's also absolutely delicious! I wonder what happened to the poor lass' other arm though...

 

[One-Off]

That pic is a good example is why some wines are so damn expensive in CA. You get someone who pays like $10m for a vineyard and they build an elaborate facility and tasting room, picnic area etc and are up to their eyeballs in debt. How much of the price of that bottle goes towards their loan payment? In Spain, Italy, France, etc where properties have been owned outright for like a century or more, a lot of stuff is made the exact same way and you pay a fraction of the cost even after it ships to the states. The dumbest thing about that pic is about 1-2(?) acres of grass bank on prime vineyard land that costs a grip to maintain and doesn't serve a purpose, and they could have planted vines there instead. Some of the cost of every bottle of Opus bought pays for that lawn.

I happen to like the architecture and to say the grass berm has no purpose is to indict most of humanities creations.

In Europe you're still paying for the architecture. Maybe the cost has been amortized over the centuries, but, at least in Italy, quite of few of the vineyards have rather nice villas associated with them. This one's just down the street from my wife's family house. Villa Sandi-



In my wife's area (Valdobbiadene) growing wine grapes has become the most renumerative agricultural activity due to the recent popularity of prosecco. Farmers/growers are the nouveau riche of the area and the first thing they do with their newfound wealth is build a nice house or maybe develop an "agriturismo." Agriturismo is where you go direct to farm or grower and they prepare a meal. These are without a doubt some of the best places to eat in Italy. Of course I've never paid $365 for a bottle at one of these places. It's usually about 100 euro per person for a five course meal with three wines or two and a grappa to finish off the meal.

Now I'm hungry...

 

[grapedrink]

The market sets the top price for Napa cab. They charge a lot because they can. it may seem foreign to us peasants, but there are plenty of uber rich folks who rock into those tasting rooms and buy cases, who’s cost relative to their worth is the equivalent of us putting a quarter in a gum ball machine.

That said, the break even line is certainly affected by their development and operation costs. Which is why you can find better value from Euro wines.

 

[_____]

I hear ya. I've been to Opus and it looks like it belongs in Vegas. It is what it is but the a portion of every bottle pays for whatever bling they have on the grounds. If they were simply a winemaking facility and vineyard going to distribution, or maybe a little more humble of a tasting room, they could sell for much less and make the same (or more) on their margins. I think Grapedrink is way more in the know about that than me to verify that (or not)
At places like that above (and any winery that wants to do it, especially Napa) there's often a "special" wine named after their dog or something, or one that's bottled from whatever the owner or winemaker somehow thinks is the best single barrel or two of wine of the vintage. They make a few dozen cases and double/triple the price and put it in a fancy box, in a thick fat bottle with etched engraving etc. There's your $350 bottle of wine when the ones that sat right next to those 2 barrels can be $100, $70, $50, etc.
Also, when wineries start getting high scores from wine critics (or even one wine critic) they start ramping up prices. That's pretty much a given no matter what country it comes from.

 

[grapedrink]

A couple years later I was with my uncle's brother in law who grows grapes around Lodi and sells to vintners. I asked him about Opus One and what justifies the price. He told me they would literally pick grapes one by one, picking only the best ones

I think that’s folklore. May have been true when labor was plentiful and cheap. Either way, the price is high because it’s an amazing vineyard site. It’s basically perfect weather and soil for creating amazing fruit. You can throw all the money you want at managing a vineyard, but your site will ultimately determine the upper limit of quality.

That said, there are now mechanical harvesters that can do exactly what you described. It certainly helps.

 

[grapedrink]

I hear ya. I've been to Opus and it looks like it belongs in Vegas. It is what it is but the a portion of every bottle pays for whatever bling they have on the grounds. If they were simply a winemaking facility and vineyard going to distribution, or maybe a little more humble of a tasting room, they could sell for much less and make the same (or more) on their margins. I think Grapedrink is way more in the know about that than me to verify that (or not)
At places like that above (and any winery that wants to do it, especially Napa) there's often a "special" wine named after their dog or something, or one that's bottled from whatever the owner or winemaker somehow thinks is the best single barrel or two of wine of the vintage. They make a few dozen cases and double/triple the price and put it in a fancy box, in a thick fat bottle with etched engraving etc. There's your $350 bottle of wine when the ones that sat right next to those 2 barrels can be $100, $70, $50, etc.
Also, when wineries start getting high scores from wine critics (or even one wine critic) they start ramping up prices. That's pretty much a given no matter what country it comes from.

You aren’t wrong. It’s more that the upper ceiling is largely set by what consumers will pay. It’s in the $40-99 bottle range where it’s a bloodbath, because those operators feel that they have to do exactly what you are describing to compete, but without the absurd margins.

 

[One-Off]

You aren’t wrong. It’s more that the upper ceiling is largely set by what consumers will pay. It’s in the $40-99 bottle range where it’s a bloodbath, because those operators feel that they have to do exactly what you are describing to compete, but without the absurd margins.

Hey Grapedrink, If you're going to Italy in fall, try and check out the Chianti Festival in Greve, just south of Florence. I went there as a 20 year old college student. I'm going to guess there were about 50 vineyards with booths and they would give you a free taste- like a big thimble full. After about ten tastes you (or at least I) couldn't tell the difference. After about twenty you didn't care and were feeling pretty good. I remember really enjoying myself. For an "intenditore" like yourself you would really like it.

ps went back and looks like you're going in June and won't be in Tuscany.

When in Rome you should visit the Trastevere area, it means "across the Tiber" and is on the other side of the river from most of the major tourist sites. But it has a very local vibe. Food was good there. Try "Cencio La Parolaccia." Parolaccia means "dirty word." It's famous because when you go there the waiters start insulting you in obscene and politically incorrect ways. I'm not sure if the effect will be as good in English, but there are enough tourists that I imagine they can be insulting in more than the local tongue. In any case the food is good.

CENCIO LA PAROLACCIA, Rome - Trastevere - Menu, Prices & Restaurant Reviews - Tripadvisor

Cencio La Parolaccia, Rome: See 2,380 unbiased reviews of Cencio La Parolaccia, rated 4 of 5 on Tripadvisor and ranked #1,191 of 12,919 restaurants in Rome.

www.tripadvisor.com

 

[grapedrink]

Hey Grapedrink, If you're going to Italy in fall, try and check out the Chianti Festival in Greve, just south of Florence. I went there as a 20 year old college student. I'm going to guess there were about 50 vineyards with booths and they would give you a free taste- like a big thimble full. After about ten tastes you (or at least I) couldn't tell the difference. After about twenty you didn't care and were feeling pretty good. I remember really enjoying myself. For an "intenditore" like yourself you would really like it.

ps went back and looks like you're going in June and won't be in Tuscany.

When in Rome you should visit the Trastevere area, it means "across the Tiber" and is on the other side of the river from most of the major tourist sites. But it has a very local vibe. Food was good there. Try "Cencio La Parolaccia." Parolaccia means "dirty word." It's famous because when you go there the waiters start insulting you in obscene and politically incorrect ways. I'm not sure if the effect will be as good in English, but there are enough tourists that I imagine they can be insulting in more than the local tongue. In any case the food is good.

CENCIO LA PAROLACCIA, Rome - Trastevere - Menu, Prices & Restaurant Reviews - Tripadvisor

Cencio La Parolaccia, Rome: See 2,380 unbiased reviews of Cencio La Parolaccia, rated 4 of 5 on Tripadvisor and ranked #1,191 of 12,919 restaurants in Rome.

www.tripadvisor.com

Thanks for the tip, even if I won’t be there. And you are right- aint nobody tasting jack after a dozen different wines, no matter how much they (think they) know. Whether that be through palette fatigue, inebriation, or most likely both

I will take you up on the 2nd tip though, thank you for that! Super stocked on the whole trip, especially Sardinia

 

[FecalFace]

When in Rome you should visit the Trastevere area, it means "across the Tiber" and is on the other side of the river from most of the major tourist sites.

Problem with Trestavere today.... all the tourists figured out that that's where the Romans eat.
So it became just another tourist trap.

When in Rome, I like to get out to the post war suburbs like EUR and get the taste of alienating modern world.

guaranteed you’ll be the only foreigner there.

 

[enframed]

At places like that above (and any winery that wants to do it, especially Napa) there's often a "special" wine named after their dog or something, or one that's bottled from whatever the owner or winemaker somehow thinks is the best single barrel or two of wine of the vintage. They make a few dozen cases and double/triple the price and put it in a fancy box, in a thick fat bottle with etched engraving etc. There's your $350 bottle of wine when the ones that sat right next to those 2 barrels can be $100, $70, $50, etc.
Also, when wineries start getting high scores from wine critics (or even one wine critic) they start ramping up prices. That's pretty much a given no matter what country it comes from.

Hahaha! Best barrel? Who the fuck knows cuz that stuff is usually direct to consumer available only at the winery or through a wine club, where prices are REALLY jacked up. No one is gonna admit they paid for sh!t wine in a wine club. Could be the worst barrel, but you've already tasted through 20 "single vineyard" expressions and you're kinda drunk. It all tastes good by then.

If you buy at the winery you are paying for the experience. If a wine is widely distributed (ie, not self-distributed), you will always pay more at the winery than in a shop because distributors won't compete with the winery.

 

[One-Off]

Problem with Trestavere today.... all the tourists figured out that that's where the Romans eat.
So it became just another tourist trap.

When in Rome, I like to get out to the post war suburbs like EUR and get the taste of alienating modern world.

guaranteed you’ll be the only foreigner there.

Still far fewer tourists there than in the center of Rome. EUR depresses me. It would be like going to Milan and spending your time in Sesto San Giovanni.

I was in Rome two years ago. Dinner prices were really low compared to what you'd pay at an Italian restaurant in Los Angeles. Grapedrink is going to gain weight...especially if he likes Gelato!

 

[santacruzin]

Better than Ridge? (Santa Clara county, but still Santa Cruz Mountains IIRC)

I went to to school with the Drapers daughter, Used to party up at their house in High school. I can only imagine how much $$$ in wine us young dumbasses used to guzzle. The winery is up on Montebello in Cupertino . Not really SC mountains.

Their daughter still hooks up some nice bottles for us old schoolers from time to time.

 

[FecalFace]

Still far fewer tourists there than in the center of Rome. EUR depresses me. It would be like going to Milan and spending your time in Sesto San Giovanni.

I was in Rome two years ago. Dinner prices were really low compared to what you'd pay at an Italian restaurant in Los Angeles. Grapedrink is going to gain weight...especially if he likes Gelato!

Touristy spots stopped interesting me a while ago, in Rome especially. I like to see how real people live and get immersed in that life.

It's like surfing Trestles with 70 other people vs surfing average beachbreak on your own.

If I go to touristy spots, it's in the middle of the night, preferably in a shitty weather.

 

[One-Off]

Touristy spots stopped interesting me a while ago, in Rome especially. I like to see how real people live and get immersed in that life.

It's like surfing Trestles with 70 other people vs surfing average beachbreak on your own.

If I go to touristy spots, it's in the middle of the night, preferably in a shitty weather.


View attachment 86199

View attachment 86200

View attachment 86201

Rome is about the spectacle Fecal. Embrace it (same place as your first pic)-

 

[One-Off]

The local Romans are always happy to see tourists-

 

[FecalFace]

Rome is about the spectacle Fecal. Embrace it (same place as your first pic)-
View attachment 86202

Yeah sure, but not the tourist spectacle.

If I wanted to see fat Americans taking selfies, I'd stay home.

 

[FecalFace]