Solar Panel Fires

GromsDad

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Read a news story this morning of a house fire where the rooftop solar panels caught fire. Got thinking and did a search and this could become a growing issue as these panels put up mostly by fly by night companies age and fail. Came across one story where a town was warning homeowners that its fire department would not try to stop a fire if solar panels are involved.....that they will just contain it. Nice.

http://www.northumberlandtoday.com/2016/11/06/solar-panel-fires-will-be-contained-not-put-out-in-alnwickhaldimand-township
 

GromsDad

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I don't read infowars. Do you?

"Solar panels don't cause fire." How about aging solar panels? How about if they are installed with shoddy workmanship? There were so many fly by night solar panel companies in these parts putting them up it wasn't even funny a few years back. Kind of like how in the year 2000 everyone was opening a mortgage company.
 

FecalFace

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Let's try this again.

Solar panels don't cause fire.

They only become a hazard if your house catches fire.

You are misinformed as usual.
 

ElOgro

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FecalFace said:
Let's try this again.

Solar panels don't cause fire.

They only become a hazard if your house catches fire.

You are misinformed as usual.
They can create a spark when they short to ground. With a combustible and air that can start a fire.
 

GDaddy

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There's actually a little controversy about this in the real estate business.

Any electrical installation that's done improperly can cause a fire. These panels and their connections do heat up A LOT, and the systems do have inverters. Both of these factors can put significantly more stress on these connections than a simple flood light or a washing machine.

Killing the connection is apparently an issue because the panel itself is the power source.

Personally, I don't see enough stories about homes catching fire due to solar installs to consider them unduly hazardous , but some people do.

 

grapedrink

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Judging by the cost of the system versus electricity bill savings, I don't see how they would ever payoff. Seems like a net negative, unless you are off the grid or need to pay for the infrastructure to reach the grid :shrug:
 

grapedrink

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Personally, I don't see enough stories about homes catching fire due to solar installs to consider them unduly hazardous , but some people do.
It's a big deal if you are a Fox News watching and Breitbart reading right wing blow hard that is hell bent on bagging on everything with any association to liberal politics :ban:
 

FecalFace

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Sure, an inverter can cause a fire but solar panels don't just spontaneously combust no matter how hot they get.

This is not an epidemic.

 

GDaddy

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It's not the panels themselves, but the connections.

The firefighters consider them an issue in terms of dealing with them when there is a fire. Water, electricity, no off switch of main disconnect, etc.

As for whether the installs are worth it to a homebuyer, it depends on several factors:

- Are there external subsidies and net metering schemes enabled by government in effect that create an artificial economic subsidy that make the solar install economically competitive with the normal grid connectivity.

- does the site get enough direct sunlight during enough hours a day to operate at capacity (for example most coastal neighborhoods don't due to overcast conditions). If the sun often doesn't come out from the overcast until noon on a summer day that's not as many hours as if you're out in the desert and is comes up at 6:00 AM.

- do you foresee electricity rates climbing dramatically; and of those rates how much are you paying for your actual usage vs how much are you paying for simply being connected to a grid that requires massive overhead and maintenance to operate regardless of how much power you're using. because unless you have batteries and are completely disconnected from the grid you'll still have connectivity for your non-daylight usage and you'll still have to pay 100% of your share of the maintenance of that system even if you only use it for a few hours a day.


It's becoming apparent that as some utilities in some states cut back on their net metering (purchasing power from customers) that the solar sales in those areas have been dropping like a rock - to the extent that some solar companies are withdrawing from those markets altogether.

Going off the grid is all about the batteries, which so far are definitely the weakest link. I expect the equipment to get cheaper as the economies of scale grow but there are apparently some basic physics limitations to the battery technology that create challenges that will be difficult to overcome as far as making the batteries cheap enough to be feasible for most users to go off the grid. Batteries have a limited number of cycles in them before they need to be replaced.

Right now, you'd go off grid if the costs of hooking up to a reliable public utility were prohibitive - like being out in the sticks where the grid doesn't extend.
 

$kully

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We should definitely stick to fossil fuels...

[img:center]http://theamericanenergynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Deepwater-Horizon.jpg[/img]
 

Surfdog

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Shoddy workmanship of panel installation "could" show up as hazardous a few years down the road. They've claimed "20 years" on the panels, but I'm a bit dubious on all the more recent Chinese panels being installed now. NOTHING the Chinese make seems to last barely half the expected/advertised life-span. The materials they use are usually inferior and when something exposed to weather 24/7/365 gets some age, they breakdown fast. It will be interesting to see how these cheaper panels hold up in the next 5-10 years.

Not to mention the connections, and especially if you have a feed-back system to the grid. But, if you live somewhere you can or need to depend on it and battery power to back up your needs at night, it's a pretty cool deal.

Not worth it for me. My electric bills aren't high enough to justify. If I had a pool, spa, or used A/C a lot, it might make sense, but otherwise, not worth it.
 

$kully

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Meanwhile in Canton, Ill



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-gas-explosion-canton-illinois-20161116-story.html [img:center]http://www.trbimg.com/img-582da662/turbine/ct-photo-gallery-canton-natural-gas-explosion--001/1400/1400x788[/img]
 

Lance Mannion

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FecalFace said:
Did you read that story on Infowars?

Solar panels don't cause fire.
Yes, heat causes fire, good catch.

If only Science could just find a way to get rid of the sun we'd have that Climate Change business under control in a heartbeat!
 

GromsDad

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FecalFace said:
Let's try this again.

Solar panels don't cause fire.

They only become a hazard if your house catches fire.

You are misinformed as usual.
Lets try this again dum dumm. Who is misinformed? Cell phones and home appliances don't cause fires either. They just become a problem once their is a fire. You're so smart Fecal. :crazy2:

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/solar-panel-fire-breaks-out-on-top-of-eht-home/article_6a3a13ce-3f80-5989-90b7-56d740363016.html
 

Surfdog

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frvcvs said:
Christmas trees cause fires!

Ban Christmas!!!
I'll be waiting the enviro-safe/sustainable, secular "Winter Holiday" tree to come back, color-wheel and all.

Problem was those color-wheels got stuck after a few years, and would melt one of the color panels to the point of almost spontaneous combustion.

Nothing about Christmas is safe. So yes, lets all become Jehovah Witnesses and ban Christmas, birthdays, nationalist holidays and anything that brings attention to anything other than God or Jesus.

Many secularists could go with this program REAL easy.

 

GDaddy

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I live in the coastal zone so there's a lot of overcast days. If I lived a few miles inland there's be many more hours a yar of direct sun but my consumption of electricity for cooling would also be a lot higher. We work from home so my energy consumption is higher than probably any of my neighbors because we're here most of the time and we're running office equipment.

The electric portion of my SDG&E bill runs about $1200/year, of which almost 50% is fixed - meaning it costs that much whether I ever flip a switch on or not. We're talking connectivity costs including various fees and bonds and the like. That means my actual electricity *consumption* is about $600/yr. (actually, I'm rounding up a bit)

If I were to assume a 3% annual increase on my electric bill, the total payments over 20 years - which it the effective lifespan of the alternative of adding a solar system with batteries - amounts to a little over $16,000. That's assuming I could generate and store enough power from the system to meet most or all of my needs on most days and only occasionally dip into using grid power when it rains for a week straight or we get a heat wave that causes me to use more fans in my home. Also assuming my battery array would last that long - which I highly doubt.


A solar install for that much electrical usage - given my location near the coast - would cost at least $15,000 at this point (probably more due to my extra usage), regardless of who pays for it. Meaning whether the gov't intervenes in the market for me and subsidizes my costs. You can buy kits for less, but they still need expert installation.

That $15,000 install cost is if I purchase the system with 2016 dollars in cash, which basically nobody does. What's more common is loan financing.

The payment of a 20-yr loan for $15,000 at 4% interest (which is a great financing rate for an equipment purchase) amounts to $1,090/yr, but that is a fixed payment that doesn't increase. The total of payments over 20 years amounts to $21,800 if I were to pay it all out of pocket. Of course, if I use taxpayer money for rebates and subsidies it would be less to me, but regardless of who pays, the costs are the costs and somebody is paying them.

Now if you think the average rate of inflation for electricity will exceed 3%/yr then that would increase my grid-power bill.

By the time it's paid off the equipment will likely be at or near the end of its effective age because these panels degrade over time and exposure to the elements and the constant cycle of heating and cooling, and the batteries have their own limitations with lifespans. As well, most people will be replacing the roof at the same time as their solar because it would be cheaper.

Now as I said, the math works differently for everyone's situation. If you're a single guy who's only home on weekends and at night during the week your energy consumption will be way lower so you can get away with a smaller system, although your grid power usage would also be lower. If you lived inland where it gets a lot hotter during the summer your usage would increase a lot due to using air conditioning (which we don't because we live near the coast).

So a solar install is generally going to be a lot more feasible for someone who has a larger house with an inland location and is home a lot than for someone who's in a smaller home near the coast and is only using power for a few hours a day. That's because the fixed costs of your utility bill remain the same whether you use a lot of energy or not.


I fully expect the costs of the hardware and possibly even the installation to come down a lot as we go. They may decrease by 50% or more in the next 10 years. The irony there is that if you wait to adopt the tech later on your break even point comes a lot sooner and the equipment will probably be more efficient and will have longer component lives. You'll break even the same time the early adopters do, except you'll still have 50% of the lifespan of the components in front of you and they'll have none.

I compare the situation to computers. There are consumers who will buy the latest/greatest computer equipment even though all they're doing is word processing or surfing the web, but regardless how much they pay they only need so much tech to do what they do and buying more is a waste of money. Then there are other people who buy the older equipment, which is still just as effective for their usage but costs a fraction of the price.


Maybe it's worth it to some people to pay extra for the virtue signal factor of having solar at home now, but I'm content to let those people pay extra for all the R&D and just slide in there with the masses when the tech finally does become feasible and there's more competition between the manufacturers and retailers.

 

GDaddy

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Meanwhile, the return on investment factor for the sub $1M homes in this region for retrofitting solar to your home generally ranges from $0 - $5,000 and prolly not more than 20% of the install costs for the larger homes in the upper price range. So far, buyers in this region aren't paying as much for solar as their install costs. That will probably change in the future but for now it is what it is. It's like a pool - you can spend $50k on a new pool but when you go to sell, most buyers in the resale market won't pay more than $10k or $15k extra for a house that has one.

As the net metering plans get sunsetted in a couple of the other states we're getting reports that in some markets the homes with the leased systems are actually selling for a little less than the homes with no solar.