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FNA, just surf the sh!t out of it for awhile. See what happens.Thanks man, that makes sense, suspicions confirmed. Almost an inch forward in wide point explains everything.
The stock design already has low entry/exit. Lowering it even more, with the combo of wide point forward was just overkill. Made the board feel like a fat cruiser, not an HP small wave machine.
I think I was so bummed because I was so psyched on riding an SD, had been feeling them up for months, all that anticipation of getting one and then being let down, with the combo of being out the money. Just wanted one slightly longer and a hair thinner because I'm tall.
The reason this thread caught my eye is that I also have a (pending) custom order with Rusty.
Did you have a chance to exchange any emails with him? If so, did you read one of his blog entries that is included as a link in his email signature file?
I think many people know this, but unless you're a pro, minute differences in boards (unless for some reason they're completely off) aren't going to effect you/your surfing that much. That's why shapers come across as remote - they've seen/heard the whining a million times, knowing 99.9% of the time it's the surfer, not the board. I think that's the essence of what R is trying to say here:
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Rusty's New Take on Volume
That beer mug illustrates how negligible of a volume amount can completely consume a rider's perspective. . Nearly 20 years ago when I was first introduced to CAD software for surfboards, I was in a new wonderworld of design control. There is a lot of back and forth these days…handshape vs...www.rustysurfboards.com
That beer mug illustrates how negligible of a volume amount can completely consume a rider's perspective.
Nearly 20 years ago when I was first introduced to CAD software for surfboards, I was in a new wonderworld of design control. There is a lot of back and forth these days…handshape vs. computer. The fact is, as a shaper, once the demand for your boards reaches around a thousand boards a year, you need to consider options or your customers will be faced with a long wait.
The options are “ghost shaper” or computer, or a combination of both. One of the features of the software is that it calculates volume. Almost 20 years ago, Luciano Leao, the developer of SurfCad, told me that I must pay attention to the volume. It took me a little while but I soon understood what he meant.
Move forward into the last 4 or 5 years, most customers have become obsessed with volume. Virtually all programs calculate in liters, fractions of liters, or in some cases, beers. Most surfboard websites have charts or apps that help your to calculate what your volume should be. The good ones take into consideration, not only your weight, but your ability level, age, and the type of surf you want your board designed for.
At the end of the day, these charts/apps really only help you to understand what kind of volume you might want on your shortboard. You have to make a decision on thickness or volume. You cannot have both. Sometimes recommended dimension tables are spot on. Other times they are not. Designs evolve over time. Not dramatically, but they change.
"If You Are Getting A Custom, Trust Your Shaper’s Judgment."
THE EQUATION
The equation for performance shortboards is fairly simple.
Take your weight in pounds example; 160
Convert to kilos; divide by 2.2 equals 72.73
Multiply by .35
Equals 25.45 liters
The multiple comes from thousands of shortboards for average to advanced surfers.
As the ability level decreases, the multiple increases.
With age, the multiple increases.
TYPICAL SHORTBOARD
5’11 19.5 2.38 30 L
make it a half inch longer (yes I get asked to do that)
5’11.5 19.5 2.38 30.2
make it an inch longer
6’0 19.5 2.38 30.4
make it .5 wider
5’11 20.0 2.38 30.8
make it .125 thicker 1/8”
5’11 19.5 2.5 31.5
thickness affects volume the most
FUNBOARD
7’0 21.5 2.85 47.2
make it an inch longer
7’1 21.5 2.85 47.7
make it .5 wider
7’0 22 2.85 48.3
make it .125 1/8” thicker
7’0 21.5 2.98 49.3
My point? The thing that affects the volume the most is thickness.
The charts and tables are guidelines, not gospel. The shaper has to find a balance between the two. Unless you are a pro you shouldn’t let a variance of less than a liter bother you. You won’t feel it. You need to choose between volume and thickness; which number do you want your shaper to focus on.
Once again, TRUST YOUR SHAPER. There are other things to also consider such as width, rocker, bottom contours, and thickness flow, fin position, fin templates, fin construction. And weight.
The weight of your board: Is it 6 lbs? or 6.6 lbs? That’s 10%. That’s significant.
7lbs that’s 16%.
Not to mention the type of cloth and resin. That affects the flex and springback.
EPS? Roughly 10% I generally program EPS boards thinner to compensate.
.5 liters on 27…that’s 1.8 % on 160 lbs 2.88 lbs
1 liter on 27 = 3.7 % on 160 that’s 5.9lbs
Does the computer program calculate the volume on the cut blank? Or the finished blank? It's the cut blank. When the blank gets finished it looses .3? .4? .5 liters?
"Trust Your Shaper's Judgment."
You never rode this model and odered one .Thanks man, that makes sense, suspicions confirmed. Almost an inch forward in wide point explains everything.
The stock design already has low entry/exit. Lowering it even more, with the combo of wide point forward was just overkill. Made the board feel like a fat cruiser, not an HP small wave machine.
I think I was so bummed because I was so psyched on riding an SD, had been feeling them up for months, all that anticipation of getting one and then being let down, with the combo of being out the money. Just wanted one slightly longer and a hair thinner because I'm tall.
Volume is very helpful but only part of the picture. I've been surfing and geeking out on board design for over 30 years and here is my take:Nice response! You obviously seem knowledgeable, no sarcasm, and I have been mulling over this volume stuff for a while, as volume calculators point me to a lower volume for my weight ~150lbs, and those volumes always feel way to low, and I think the flaw is that:
The concept of volume just looks at "weight" vs. "mass" and assumes everyone has the same distribution of muscle and fat. The density of each substance is different due to its mass: muscle is less buoyant in water vs. fat.
So a 200lb person that is 20% fat could use less volume vs. a 200lb person that is 10% fat.
-I guess I am focusing paddling mostly since that is what we are doing 70% of the time?
I am no elite athlete but manage to keep my fat in the lower end of the spectrum for my weight and age ~13%. So I tend to feel like I sink in water vs. some others.
So I have been wondering to truly dial in the 'right' volume the industry/shapers should take this into account...???
Cheers
This is a Big hassle going back and checking these #'sI don’t know sh!t about shaping software, cutting machines or any of it - but I see a few numbers that seem a little odd.
1. Look at the tail @ 0” measurements: yours says 0.0”, the stock 2.8”? How does that work?
2. While the numbers generally aren’t that different (except example above), it seems odd that your nose and tail are both thicker while the more central #s are thinner.
rook 15 and girabbit aren't wide point foward, you've got no idea what you're sayingYeah I've had boards with wide point forward that worked insane, for example, Channel Islands Rook 15 and Girabbit (based on the Rook 15). The SuperBrand Mad Cat has a lot foam forward and works really well for me. HOWEVER, all of those boards have generous amounts of rocker curve either in the entry or exit.
Low nose entry, with a wide point foward, and low exit, make the board a cruiser.
AND, want to hear something really fucking funny/sad? I sold the board on Craigslist today. Guy texted me back an hour later with these exact words:
"Just took it out. With the flat shape it feels like 34 liters. For me it rides long. Its gets speed but doesn't turn well. Anyhow thanks. I'm sure I can sell it!"
Dude was about the same height and weight as me. Ok,later.
ummm....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vGTIkrxT2crook 15 and girabbit aren't wide point foward, you've got no idea what you're saying
No, he said he already sold it and was in NCSD.is that the super chunky one theguy on hurr didunt like?
IThanks man, that makes sense, suspicions confirmed. Almost an inch forward in wide point explains everything.
The stock design already has low entry/exit. Lowering it even more, with the combo of wide point forward was just overkill. Made the board feel like a fat cruiser, not an HP small wave machine.
I think I was so bummed because I was so psyched on riding an SD, had been feeling them up for months, all that anticipation of getting one and then being let down, with the combo of being out the money. Just wanted one slightly longer and a hair thinner because I'm tall.
another detail to add, the nose at 12" is 1/4" wider, this is probably due to the center point shiftYes I hear you Greg, slight changes. I would just say that I've been surfing for 30 years, ridden probably hundreds of boards. I can pick a board up, and pretty much know if its going to work for me or not. All of the SD's I felt up in the shops felt spot-on. Foils looked great.
Your'e leaving out the fact that the wide point was moved up by 3/4 of an inch. That's going to make a big different on a 6'1" board. Its going to change where the fulcrum of the board sits in between your stance and put a bunch more foam under the front foot. Instead of the board being a well balanced low-end HPSB, like advertised by Rusty (see Clint's video) it becomes a cruiser with a bunch of stickyness in the front of the board, much less vertical ability, a bunch of unwanted swing-weight up front. Especially when combined with the lower entry rocker.
A simple one or two sentence explanation in their emails could have avoided all of this. I would have just said "whoa, thats not what I'm looking for".
the 2.8" (is width btw, not thickness) at tail 0.0" doesn't really mean much. It all depends on the designer how they design the shape of the tail. In many cases, you can get the same results in shape with control points in different locations.I don’t know sh!t about shaping software, cutting machines or any of it - but I see a few numbers that seem a little odd.
1. Look at the tail @ 0” measurements: yours says 0.0”, the stock 2.8”? How does that work?
2. While the numbers generally aren’t that different (except example above), it seems odd that your nose and tail are both thicker while the more central #s are thinner.