plant-based vs paleo / carnivore diet

One-Off

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When I read that I thought to myself that doesn't sound right, isn't it the LDL getting that's getting glycated and not the liver. So I delved into that this morning.

While its true that the LDL gets glycated when subjected to a high carbohydrate load like AI was telling me about yesterday and the glycation of those particles takes place in the bloodstream not the liver you are absolutely right in saying that the liver can literally get glycated too!

This is because living tissue in general can get glycated and the liver is no exception. Glycated cells are damaged cells. When I asked ai if glycated liver cells was the mechanism for producing bad proportions of the bad/good particle sizes it didn't go out on a limb and give a definite yes, but it did suggest it might play a role/contribute and went on about how a high carb/sugar load is associated with Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD).

NAFLD causes the liver to do bad things. So I asked AI how can I reduce my risk of NAFLD, yet again it told me to limit the saturated fats, swap them out for fats from things such as avocados. There is a whole raft of other things we can do to avoid NAFLD too. Nevertheless, everything is telling me that saturated fat is a bad actor - where did you get this information that its ok to indulge in the saturated fats?
What ai are you using? When it makes statements does it give “footnotes” citing clinical studies? You seem to trust the feedback.

Could you ask your ai about triglyceride/hdl ratio as bio marker.
 
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Mr J

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@One-Off I am just using free "Bing Copilot" which comes with microsoft edge browser. I do have a subscription to Github Copilot which my employer pays for and has provided to all our team so that we can spit out the code more quickly, however I am worried that using it for non programming questions would upset its ability/willingness to help me write code and solve software problems.

So there is a problem with trust. It backs up just about everything it says with a web reference that I can look up (and frequently do when I want more detail), but because I am not a medical expert I am not a good vet of that information. With software its different - that's my field and I can tell when ai gets it wrong - which it regularly does. Sometimes I can spot straight away that it is wrong, sometimes I can spot straight away that its maybe not wrong but a bad way of doing it. Its also easily testable - I can paste in the code snippet or suggestion into my program and it plain doesn't work.

So ai does get things wrong and without medical expertise my conversations with it can't be given any high degree of trust confidence. Nevertheless my gut feel is that it is generally handing me out good information. Sometimes it goes off on a tangent which I can spot, sometimes its misunderstood my question which I can spot, but otherwise I am like anyone doing a google search and reading the results. I bet it has web link vetting intelligence, better than mine though.

What I like about it is that I can bring up yesterdays conversation and it remembers the train of inquiry and interest I am following.

ai.JPG

edit --> just emailed you the link to that conversation, hopefully it will give all the web links
 
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slipped_disc

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I saw a video where he talked about what you’d like to be able do in your last decade of life. I took that to mean in my 90’s. ;) I have a grandpa who lived to 103 and was golfing a full round until at least 97 (when the local paper did a front page feature in him). Myself, I’d like to be hiking around the mountains in my 90’s. I’ve met lots of folks on the trails in their 80’s. Don’t know about 90s. I’d like to be surfing in my 80s. I know one fellow who surfs in his late 70s on the mellow days. But I don’t know that any of those people “trained” for it. Grandpa never trained, just walked every day (and drank a martini every evening). I’m starting to do that training now that I have the time (retired) and fukkin enjoy it.

As far as eternity goes, the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveler returns, I think I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it. Lord have mercy.
On the note of 80 year olds in the mountains, have you seen this guy? Impressive and interesting character.

 
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One-Off

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On the note of 80 year olds in the mountains, have you seen this guy? Impressive and interesting character.

Inspiring. I was going to say “He’s going to lose that race,” before reading the article. I loved how the article ended.

”I guess this is far enough for one day.” :bowdown:
 
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Mike_Jones

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.....everything is telling me that saturated fat is a bad actor - where did you get this information that its ok to indulge in the saturated fats?

Where did you get the information that saturated fats are bad? People have been eating animal fat since there were people. Wholesale use of unsaturated vegetable fats are a flash in the pan, introduced concurrent with the rise in heart disease.

The supposition that high cholesterol is bad is entirely based on anecdotal population studies and otherwise valid studies with false premises. I challenge you to name a double blind cross section study, one which found the "high cholesterol" marker to be predictive of disease, which compared high-fat, low-fructose diets to low-fat, high-fructose diets. To the last study they all compare high-fat, high-carb diets to low-fat, high-carb diets. And this passes for science why?

They establish that yes, low-fat high-carb diets are superior to high-fat high-carb diets. Fine. I would have conceded that point up front. What they don't establish is that either diet regime is superior to a high-fat low-fructose diet. And that's the diet I'm endorsing.

What are these researchers afraid of? Telling a capitalist public that their addictive high-fructose diets are making them sick. That's what. If you're such a researcher then research the effects of cellular JNK1 and JNK2 and their association with fructose ingestion.

One of the biggest problems associated with using cholesterol levels as a marker is that it's just like most blood chemical markers. The body is supposed to use the marker and get rid of it. The medical establishment assumes that high cholesterol blood concentrations indicate that, in this case, too much marker was made while never examining why it was not either used or expelled.

It's a highly flawed system which physicians are legally forced to conform to in the name of industry standards.
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Mr J

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I had to look up what a double blind study was and it is one where neither the participants nor the researchers know what test group they are in. So I said to ai, so for a study of showing the effects of say a high saturated fat Vs a low saturated fat diet, it would be quite difficult to perform wouldn't it because the participants would need to be either given ready made meals cooked with say palm oil vs canola oil or they would need to be given unmarked bottles to do their own cooking. If they were given say fatty lamb roasts vs lean chicken and avocado they would know which group they are in. Ai agreed and said instead "observational studies" have been done and this is inferior to double blind. To get a combination study with low vs high fructose would be even more challenging.

As for eating animal fats since humans began, this does indeed seem to be true with ice age man thought to be eating high saturated fat mamoths amongst other things. Delving that far back is probably not useful for justifying that, because early hominids are not thought to have had a lifespan of much beyond 20 and even late paleolithic man was not thought to have pushed much past 30 years old plus they had all sorts challenges which wouldn't help their lifespan. So I asked ai about the more recent traditional native eskimo - they must have been eating heaps of saturated fat from all that seal blubber - how did they do? Surprisingly well was the answer, although it cautioned me that scientist think they have genetics that make them handle saturated fat well and that they were also getting decent amounts of that good omega fish stuff.

Mike (I have the same name as you btw), what I was been getting from ai the last couple of days isn't entirely different from what you are saying - sLDLs (which I guess is what your lab calls CLDLs) do seem to be a better indicator of heart health than overall LDL, so if you know that your sLDLs are right down (along with triglycerides) despite a diet high in saturated fat then maybe its not a concern for you - either a lie like you said or you have favourable genetics like the eskimos.

Regarding keeping fructose intake low, ai was indirectly agreeing with you - at least for certain scenarios. Various bad actors were coming up such as smoking, drinking heavily, trans fats, what repeatedly came up as a bad actor was large carbohydrate loads (quantity + glycaemic index), sugar is obviously one of them, but say apple juice has a moderate GI and consuming say a generously sized glass of that could cause some bad glycation and oxidisation to occur, particularly someone who was insulin resistant or had some other glucose intolerance.
 
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Mike_Jones

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either a lie like you said or you have favourable genetics like the eskimos.

Your studies don't indicate that eskimos have good genetics. They indicate that eskimos used to have good diets. I'm certain that my genetics are terrible for a western fructose diet. I am roughly 3/8 American Indian. I have mutated neurofibromatosis genes, and I'm certain to have mutated ALDH2 and G3PDH genes as I get the Asian flush, and I'm allergic to glycerine. Both of the ALDH mutations are common to people of east Asian origin like eskimos and American Indians.

The ALDH mutations are far more dangerous than popular medicine indicates. I have outlived my life expectancy with a high-fat, no-fructose, no-alcohol diet.
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One-Off

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I had to look up what a double blind study was and it is one where neither the participants nor the researchers know what test group they are in. So I said to ai, so for a study of showing the effects of say a high saturated fat Vs a low saturated fat diet, it would be quite difficult to perform wouldn't it because the participants would need to be either given ready made meals cooked with say palm oil vs canola oil or they would need to be given unmarked bottles to do their own cooking. If they were given say fatty lamb roasts vs lean chicken and avocado they would know which group they are in. Ai agreed and said instead "observational studies" have been done and this is inferior to double blind. To get a combination study with low vs high fructose would be even more challenging.

As for eating animal fats since humans began, this does indeed seem to be true with ice age man thought to be eating high saturated fat mamoths amongst other things. Delving that far back is probably not useful for justifying that, because early hominids are not thought to have had a lifespan of much beyond 20 and even late paleolithic man was not thought to have pushed much past 30 years old plus they had all sorts challenges which wouldn't help their lifespan. So I asked ai about the more recent traditional native eskimo - they must have been eating heaps of saturated fat from all that seal blubber - how did they do? Surprisingly well was the answer, although it cautioned me that scientist think they have genetics that make them handle saturated fat well and that they were also getting decent amounts of that good omega fish stuff.

Mike (I have the same name as you btw), what I was been getting from ai the last couple of days isn't entirely different from what you are saying - sLDLs (which I guess is what your lab calls CLDLs) do seem to be a better indicator of heart health than overall LDL, so if you know that your sLDLs are right down (along with triglycerides) despite a diet high in saturated fat then maybe its not a concern for you - either a lie like you said or you have favourable genetics like the eskimos.

Regarding keeping fructose intake low, ai was indirectly agreeing with you - at least for certain scenarios. Various bad actors were coming up such as smoking, drinking heavily, trans fats, what repeatedly came up as a bad actor was large carbohydrate loads (quantity + glycaemic index), sugar is obviously one of them, but say apple juice has a moderate GI and consuming say a generously sized glass of that could cause some bad glycation and oxidisation to occur, particularly someone who was insulin resistant or had some other glucose intolerance.
I was watching a podcast where the MD compared two indigenous people- Inuit and Tarahumara. Inuit diet is all meat. Tarahumara is 80% carbs. Both are healthy. What’s missing is the fructose, added sugars and processed food. Fructose from fruit he said was OK because it is bound to fiber and is digested much further down the digestive tract (slower).

Lots of info here. I still have to “digest” it all. I found very interesting towards the end how he says we need processed food in order to feed 10 billion people, but need to make it healthy …and tasty. He is experimenting with the least amount of sugar to make something tasty.

 
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Mr J

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Your studies don't indicate that eskimos have good genetics. They indicate that eskimos used to have good diets. I'm certain that my genetics are terrible for a western fructose diet. I am roughly 3/8 American Indian. I have mutated neurofibromatosis genes, and I'm certain to have mutated ALDH2 and G3PDH genes as I get the Asian flush, and I'm allergic to glycerine. Both of the ALDH mutations are common to people of east Asian origin like eskimos and American Indians.

The ALDH mutations are far more dangerous than popular medicine indicates. I have outlived my life expectancy with a high-fat, no-fructose, no-alcohol diet.
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ok, so its not just the high glycaemic load of fructose in its processed from, such as a carton of concentrated UHT fruit juice that has had the fibre stripped away or even worse high fructose corn syrup that you are avoiding. You think there is something special about fructose and ALDH2 deficiency? I'm trying to guess what that might be - is it that your body ferments fruit in the gut and turns it into acetaldehyde which ALDH2 deficiency can't handle? I'm interested.

Great to hear you are doing well. I've outlived my father by close to a couple of decades, he died of colon cancer in his mid forties. I have a different diet to him - less red meat, more fibre, but to say that is the reason would be just anecdotal. I'm mixed race too. I get checked every 5 yrs.

I'm on a high fat, lowish carb, lowish alcohol diet. A difference would be that I do eat fruit, particularly in the morning with brekky. Raw fruit as One-off noted is low GI and when consumed with fats and proteins such as fried eggs slows glucose uptake even more. I'm also keeping my fat intake low in saturated fat.

edit --> I wasn't asking the right questions. Fructose is linked with NAFLD. A cup of strawberries should be fine, eating say 1 orange too. Large amounts of fructose are metabolised differently than sugar and the liver can convert it to fat.
 
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Mr J

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I was watching a podcast where the MD compared two indigenous people- Inuit and Tarahumara. Inuit diet is all meat. Tarahumara is 80% carbs. Both are healthy. What’s missing is the fructose, added sugars and processed food... .
I've just been told the Tarahumara do eat some fruits , so are getting fructose or were you referring to the refined processed forms of fructose? I've also just been told that my use of the word "eskimo" isn't very good substitute for Inuit for a couple of reasons one of which is that its offensive. So I said "if I am an outsider and I was using the word "eskimo" in a positive way eg. if I said "the eskimo are thought to have good genetics against heart disease" could I be forgiven? "
The answer was "Certainly! If you use the term “Eskimo” in a positive and respectful context, acknowledging the group’s positive attributes, it shows understanding and goodwill. People are generally forgiving when intentions are positive and respectful. Remember that language evolves, and being open to learning and adapting is essential " :) I wasn't born and brought up in a very culturally open place to say the least, however it has moved on since I left.

Inuit did manage some plant intake - berries, grasses, some roots, but they would have been on a low carb diet.

Tarahumara seem to get most their carbs from beans and corn. The former in particular has a low GI and the latter used to make tortillas which I guess are not consumed on their own - eaten with the beans. So they aren't on a high GI diet compared to a westerner consuming coca-cola and white bread burger buns during the day, with fruit loops for brekky. For someone with type-2 diabetes then even the Tarahumara diet would be a problem, so maybe they have the genetics to avoid insulin resistance. I asked what causes insulin resistance and genetics amongst other things does play a part.

There really doesn't seem to a be a perfect diet fits all.
 

Mike_Jones

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You think there is something special about fructose and ALDH2 deficiency? I'm trying to guess what that might be - is it that your body ferments fruit in the gut and turns it into acetaldehyde which ALDH2 deficiency can't handle? I'm interested.

Yep.

ALDH-2 deficiency increases cardiovascular oxidative stress

Right now coastal Asian populations are seeing a downward spiral. I'm saying that's due to the ALDH2 mutation colliding with the proliferation of the North American fructose diet. My theory is that the mutation started with the spread of the Ainu gene pool through their sea-faring prowess.

Japan's Ainu People
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Mr J

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I was watching a podcast where the MD compared two indigenous people- Inuit and Tarahumara. Inuit diet is all meat. Tarahumara is 80% carbs. Both are healthy. What’s missing is the fructose, added sugars and processed food. Fructose from fruit he said was OK because it is bound to fiber and is digested much further down the digestive tract (slower).

Lots of info here. I still have to “digest” it all. I found very interesting towards the end how he says we need processed food in order to feed 10 billion people, but need to make it healthy …and tasty. He is experimenting with the least amount of sugar to make something tasty.

wow! That Dr Robert Lustig chat with Dhru Purohit really is a wonderful podcast @One-Off . I watched it all, backtracked over some bits and augmented my understanding with some more conversations with my artificial friend. I won't claim I took in all it had to offer, but I think I basically understand what he says.

I realise now that I have been quite ignorant about the terms fructose, table sugar and glucose . I thought fructose was fruit sugar and table sugar (including coca-cola sugar) was some other distinct molecule called sucrose (which got broken down into glucose, just like say starch does) :foreheadslap: Dr Lustig seemed to be using sugar and fructose interchangeably and it dawned on me that I might be misunderstanding all this.

AI straightened me out. So I was only half right at best. Fructose is found fruits - that's correct. Sucrose also does get broken down into glucose - that's half correct - it gets broken down into glucose AND fructose, because sucrose is not some distinct molecule it is actually a glucose molecule and a fructose molecule bonded together.

I had this idea that fructose is better for me coz it has a lower glycaemic index which means it won't spike my blood glucose so much and won't spike the insulin response so much. The GI bit is true however in a crucial way it is worse than glucose because it does not get turned into glucose, instead the liver has to metabolise it directly and the liver can only metabolise so much of it before it starts to nasty things in exactly the same way that the liver can handle a bit of alcohol and then start to do nasty things. Notably fructose beyond that threshold contributes more directly to NAFLD than glucose. Glucose can also but in a more roundabout way - make someone obese first. Unlike glucose exercise won't be directly changing the load on the liver when fructose is concerned.

So @Mike_Jones I think you are right to single out fructose. I won't be reducing my consumption of fructose via fresh fruit. This is because I've been avoiding fruit juice simply for higher glycaemic index reasons, although the reason for avoiding it seems to be a bit deeper than that - whole fruit makes it further down the intestine where some of the fructose will end up feeding the gut flora where it gets broken down before reaching the liver in the form of fructose. Whole fruit also has good stuff such as fibre and vit C.

I've been limiting fructose intake via sucrose for years because of my uncommon form of glucose intolerance. So on the right track, but again purely GI reasons, without knowing about the liver metabolism reason.
 
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Mr Doof

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Should we all post up pics of our bods?

Like, in a not gay way.

But just to see some results.
I prefer to see actual stock market records of purchases/sales.:p

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Name the person who ever died of high cholesterol.
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Is this part of the "'of" or "with" discussion?

FWIW, the liver makes cholesterol. I suppose it is possible for the liver to get wonky and over/under produce a body's cholesterol requirements, which could be offset to a degree by dietary changes.
 
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Duffy LaCoronilla

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The study’s limitations included its reliance on self-reported dietary information, which may be affected by participant’s memory or recall and may not accurately assess typical eating patterns. Factors that may also play a role in health, outside of daily duration of eating and cause of death, were not included in the analysis.
:shrug:
 

ReForest

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I have been trying to unpack the two quotes from sh3 and reforest that you posted in your opening post and I think I am some of the way there with some help from AI.

No sh3 and his doctor of nutrition wife are not saying that on face value - they are saying only get concerned if its the "pellet" consistency that is sending the LDL up. The floss consistency LDL is the one to feel comfortable about. For people like me who don't have access a doc whose clinic can order and interpret "lipoprotein fractionation" the advice he gave me on getting floss up and pellet down appears to be good conventionally accepted - eg canola seed oil is pushed as healthy but ai pointed out its highly processed and subjected to all sorts of heat and chemical treatments. So for me that would mean swapping it for virgin olive oil that I can get in any supermarket - that's going to send HDL up and sit just fine with conventional health guidelines. Also reading between the lines of the snippet posted by sh3's wife its ok to try and get overall LDL down if that's the only LDL number we can get in the absence of a fractionation test.

Regarding the Jupiter study on statins ai pointed out it was done on a group who didn't have cholesterol - it didn't go so far as to say it was bullshit, but my personal reading between the lines of the study suggests to me that it showed statins are good for the heart for people with a specific inflammation marker and no more than that. Although my personal attitude is that doesn't negate other advice on statins. When I got tested my doc told me that my LDL is a bit too high, however various stats such as my high HDL was fed into the heart risk calculator and risk came out low. Statins were not suggested. I am on nuts and seeds as suggested by sh3's wife.

ai sent me a link on the bad effects of sugar oxidising cholesterol - maybe its the oxidising that is bad and not so much the LDL? I don't know. However shunning sugar (again conventionally accepted advice) appears to be the only commonality between Dr Shawn Baker and our in house doctor of nutrition. When I posted my sample meal sh3 said make sure I get vegetables for antioxidising - see conversation above :) In contrast the Dr Baker diet shuns all things plant including veggies!

Have I got that about right @sh3 and @ReForest ?
I think you got it right. I was still mulling over Sh3’s wifes breakdown of LDL-P and LDL-C.

I find it interesting the Dr. Baker doesn’t recommend eating plant based foods (veggies and fruits) too. It seems counter intuitive to life-long lessons on health. But I think the fiber found in plants is what can cause inflammation so that is why he is avoiding it? Not sure, but after being on a carnivore diet (with slight deviations – chocolate or donut on the weekends and beer sometimes on the weekends) I’ve actually maintained my weight of 145lbs but I’m super lean. I’ve never really had abs, but after 2 months I have a little washboard on my stomach. Now eating healthy is kind of addictive because I see results. Sorry if I’m tooting my own horn a bit but being fit and healthy feels really good.
you are doing really well. Some of that would be due to fortunate biomechanically robust genetics - some peoples joints and back for example just aren't going to handle it. Keep on shortboaring, its use it or lose it, I am not against mid lengths and went thu a phase of switching between short and a Takayama egg in my 40s, several sessions in a row on that made getting back in tune with the shortie harder. Like you said on the Attia thread train to shortboar at 70 which I think requires a lot of shortboaring in our 60s.

You also have an allergy/intolerance to lectins and you think gluten. You also posted a while back about the somewhat medically unrecognised "leaky gut" condition - I'm convinced I had that about 20 years ago - I can't prove it because its not conventionally recognised! Mine was for reasons completely different to food intolerances - I have a motility problem - when that was overcome leaky gut symptoms not come back. I thrive on lectins nowadays and I did try a very rigorous elimination of gluten - made no difference. Its good that you posted about that in case it helps someone who is similar, but myself and possibly most people do not have that intolerance.

PS @ReForest on the subject of allergies did the carnivore diet cure your eczema? Plant sources are apparently more likely to be a source of allergies than meat. I am not arguing with the fitness body composition benefits that you have experienced, but the carnivore diet appears to be a more restrictive version of the keto diet and maybe your benefits come from going keto not from eliminating veggies. Just a thought, I'm not a nutritionist!
Just read your second post and I think you may be right about going Keto. My wife pointed out that my breathe smells sweet (and not in a good way). With all the meat I am eating I think my body is in a constant state of ketosis which probably explains my abs. I’ll look into the plant based foods and allergies… kinda makes sense. I’ve found that even a small amount of processed sugar introduced into my diet totally throws my body off, but fruits seem to be okay. But to answer your question, no – the carnivore diet hasn’t resolved by Eczema. It keeps it from getting inflamed, but still there. It’s such a strange thing because I’ve never had eczema by entire life, but once I got COVID it showed up. It must have done something to my immune response system? Idk. I have no idea but there is a study online about people having skin issues following COVID exposure. Oh well… at least I found out how to get a little more ripped entering my 4th decade on this earth. Lol.
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Name the person who ever died of high cholesterol.

Cholesterol is a requirement of human life. Cholesterol particles are little balloons filled with fat derivatives (acetone triglycerides). The walls of the balloons are lipoproteins, just like cellular and mitochondrial membranes. The liver creates cholesterol particles for the purpose of feeding fat to cells while replenishing their spent membrane lipoproteins.

The only bad cholesterol particles are compact low density lipoprotein (CLDL) particles. They are essentially dead cholesterol membranes, left over when a glycated (sugar-fied) liver fails to create healthy cholesterol particles. High serum triglyceride concentration is the other result of the same process failure.

I'm proud to go out on this limb. Disregard the entire cholesterol panel except for two entries: 1) Physical CLDL count per blood volume, and 2) Triglyceride blood concentration. The rest is meaningless, and varies only with patient genetics.

There are no such things as eating or avoiding eating cholesterol. For the reasons I covered the diet changes necessary for avoiding circulatory disease are to avoid alcohol and fructose (anything which tastes sweet).

Eat lots of fats,. saturated and unsaturated so you can make abundant healthy cholesterol. The only difference between saturated and unsaturated fats is the temperature where liquid turns to solid.
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This is awesome! Great info!

BTW: I found some good Olive Oil at Trader Joes and I my wife has been using it liberally when she cooks a whole chicken in the oven on a cast iron pan. The result is this chicken broth mixed with olive oil and onion and salt and pepper. I’ve been drinking it as a broth and I feel like freaking superman! Good Olive Oil feels insanely good! Not sure if I’m right, but my body feels like it loves it!
 
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SurfDoc

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I think you got it right. I was still mulling over Sh3’s wifes breakdown of LDL-P and LDL-C.

I find it interesting the Dr. Baker doesn’t recommend eating plant based foods (veggies and fruits) too. It seems counter intuitive to life-long lessons on health. But I think the fiber found in plants is what can cause inflammation so that is why he is avoiding it? Not sure, but after being on a carnivore diet (with slight deviations – chocolate or donut on the weekends and beer sometimes on the weekends) I’ve actually maintained my weight of 145lbs but I’m super lean. I’ve never really had abs, but after 2 months I have a little washboard on my stomach. Now eating healthy is kind of addictive because I see results. Sorry if I’m tooting my own horn a bit but being fit and healthy feels really good.

Just read your second post and I think you may be right about going Keto. My wife pointed out that my breathe smells sweet (and not in a good way). With all the meat I am eating I think my body is in a constant state of ketosis which probably explains my abs. I’ll look into the plant based foods and allergies… kinda makes sense. I’ve found that even a small amount of processed sugar introduced into my diet totally throws my body off, but fruits seem to be okay. But to answer your question, no – the carnivore diet hasn’t resolved by Eczema. It keeps it from getting inflamed, but still there. It’s such a strange thing because I’ve never had eczema by entire life, but once I got COVID it showed up. It must have done something to my immune response system? Idk. I have no idea but there is a study online about people having skin issues following COVID exposure. Oh well… at least I found out how to get a little more ripped entering my 4th decade on this earth. Lol.

This is awesome! Great info!

BTW: I found some good Olive Oil at Trader Joes and I my wife has been using it liberally when she cooks a whole chicken in the oven on a cast iron pan. The result is this chicken broth mixed with olive oil and onion and salt and pepper. I’ve been drinking it as a broth and I feel like freaking superman! Good Olive Oil feels insanely good! Not sure if I’m right, but my body feels like it loves it!
You'd better check your cholesterol after drinking all that liquid chicken fat. Thank me later. Hint: you all know about anti-oxidants. Think of chicken fat as pro-oxidant on steroids. You want arterial wall inflammation, then think hey, chicken fat'll do that!
 

Mike_Jones

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Chicken fat is great for the entire body, especially the production of healthy cholesterol.

Oxidants are bleaches, biproducts of hydrogen peroxide bleach. The body's protection against oxidants comes from superoxide dismutase (SOD). SOD is a product of the Krebs cellular energy cycle. The Krebs cycle slows production of SOD and increases the production of hydrogen peroxide when attempting to chemically reduce the byproducts of fructose and wheat ingestion.
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Mr J

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Regional Vic, Australia
I think you got it right. I was still mulling over Sh3’s wifes breakdown of LDL-P and LDL-C.

I find it interesting the Dr. Baker doesn’t recommend eating plant based foods (veggies and fruits) too. It seems counter intuitive to life-long lessons on health. But I think the fiber found in plants is what can cause inflammation so that is why he is avoiding it? Not sure, but after being on a carnivore diet (with slight deviations – chocolate or donut on the weekends and beer sometimes on the weekends) I’ve actually maintained my weight of 145lbs but I’m super lean. I’ve never really had abs, but after 2 months I have a little washboard on my stomach. Now eating healthy is kind of addictive because I see results. Sorry if I’m tooting my own horn a bit but being fit and healthy feels really good.

Just read your second post and I think you may be right about going Keto. My wife pointed out that my breathe smells sweet (and not in a good way). With all the meat I am eating I think my body is in a constant state of ketosis which probably explains my abs. I’ll look into the plant based foods and allergies… kinda makes sense. I’ve found that even a small amount of processed sugar introduced into my diet totally throws my body off, but fruits seem to be okay. But to answer your question, no – the carnivore diet hasn’t resolved by Eczema. It keeps it from getting inflamed, but still there. It’s such a strange thing because I’ve never had eczema by entire life, but once I got COVID it showed up. It must have done something to my immune response system? Idk. I have no idea but there is a study online about people having skin issues following COVID exposure. Oh well… at least I found out how to get a little more ripped entering my 4th decade on this earth. Lol.

This is awesome! Great info!

BTW: I found some good Olive Oil at Trader Joes and I my wife has been using it liberally when she cooks a whole chicken in the oven on a cast iron pan. The result is this chicken broth mixed with olive oil and onion and salt and pepper. I’ve been drinking it as a broth and I feel like freaking superman! Good Olive Oil feels insanely good! Not sure if I’m right, but my body feels like it loves it!
I've been looking into this with the help of AI, just taking me a very long time to respond to your post!

So I can see where Mike Jones gets the idea of not being concerned about saturated fat intake. There appears to be a poor correlation between saturated fat intake and death from cardiovascular disease - although the idea that saturated fat doesn't cause cardio death hasn't been proven either. So I started asking AI where the idea came from and why does say the Australian government health guidelines recommend limiting saturated fat intake. It seems there is both a measured and observed chain of cause and effect.
1. Saturated fat raises overall LDL cholesterol levels - this can be measured.
2. High LDL cholesterol levels have been observed to be associated with plaquing of arteries.
3. Plaquing of arteries cause reduced blood flow and can lead to heart attacks and other problems.

However the suggestion to avoid fructose is also in that category - there are no studies that have proven a link between death from some metabolic problem and fructose, although there is a theoretical chain of cause and effect.
1. Fructose raises triglycerides more than complex carbs or glucose.
2. High triglyceride levels can mean an increased level of VLDLs circulating.
3. High levels of VLDLs are associated with cardiovascular disease.

Also mice when fed large quantities of fructose developed non alcoholic fatty liver disease. Fatty liver disease is associated with increased type 2 diabetes and cancer which are associated with reduced lifespan.

So if we dismiss the saturated fat chain of cause and effect then it could be argued that we can dismiss the fructose chain of cause and effect as a concern too. I'm not going to do that with either - the world health organisation recommends limiting sugar intake to less than 10% of total energy requirement - 5% even better and they would have thrown a lot of resources at arriving at this. I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I don't think my government is trying to kill me and I don't have a strong reason to send my saturated fat intake up - I prefer the taste of fish to meat, although I do like both.

So on to your question of did the fibre in veggies cause Dr Baker to have inflammation. I had a look at his website, but hard to get answers and I'm not sufficiently interested to go through his youtube videos and podcasts. However a website called allthingscarnivore did say that Dr Baker was suffering from aches, sleep apnea and metabolic problems in his 40s. Its unfortunate that it happens to some people that young, but its not normal to be suffering from that due to eating fibre. I don't have those things despite eating veggies and fruit. I wouldn't say I am very lucky with health though - I do have a digestive disorder of unknown cause that requires me to eat many (5) small meals in a day rather than fewer big ones.

Maybe you can answer this - did Dr Baker first eliminate junk and high carbs and not get well, or did he have to go the full elimination of veg/fruit also to get well? I'm wondering if maybe he was just eating too much rubbish. It might be that he is allergic to some plants. To my knowledge I don't have food allergies - I've been tested. I do have allergies to other environmental things though - pollen, mould, autumn leaves, cut grass! If I don't overexpose myself to those then I can handle a bit without getting respiratory problems.

I don't have any spare weight to lose so for me no motivation to go keto. And as for carnivore, I can't find it now, there was an article on ABC news(Australian Broadcasting Corp news) about a woman who had strange vascular bleeding problems in her legs despite not being low in iron - it turned out she had scurvy due to restricting veg/fruit intake to control her allergies. I also like fruit and veg. Broccoli, onions, strawberries and mushrooms are some of my favorites.

I don't believe there is one diet recommendation for everyone - I wouldn't suggest that just because it helps me others should eat 5 small meals a day. Similarly, just because someone has an allergy to nuts (like my brother) doesn't mean no-one should eat nuts.