plant-based vs paleo / carnivore diet

sh3

Michael Peterson status
Dec 1, 2008
2,584
3,496
113
@Mr J - Nailed it. Keep up the strong work. Do, IMO, continue to partake of veggies and fiber.

@Duffy LaCoronilla - Dude. I'm in my mid-50s. Also, caloric restriction can have significantly negative impacts on your metabolism when done over time. Don't deny yourself, but also don't overdo it. As someone said above, moderation is key. As is varying your diet to ensure micronutrients of all different kinds get into the works.

My wife likes to say the body works like Goldie Locks. Not too little and not too much of any one thing. I hate when she says it, but it's true.

By the way, I didn't used to be in shape like this. I was a desk-jockey lawyer for over 20 years. I started paddleboarding in 2009 and it changed my life. All courtesy of this place, the erBB. Met some people here who motivated me, inspired me, and got me to challenge myself. Best day ever for me was 8/24/2008, when this shot of a few of us at San-O was taken - I won't name the people but I still love these guys in a not-gay way. I made a deal that day to the Catalina Classic with JP. We shook hands. Changed my entire life. I since won the Classic and have gotten onto the trophy a few times. I owe the erBB.

internetdudes.jpg
 

casa_mugrienta

Duke status
Apr 13, 2008
44,066
18,736
113
Petak Island
@Mr J - Nailed it. Keep up the strong work. Do, IMO, continue to partake of veggies and fiber.

@Duffy LaCoronilla - Dude. I'm in my mid-50s. Also, caloric restriction can have significantly negative impacts on your metabolism when done over time. Don't deny yourself, but also don't overdo it. As someone said above, moderation is key. As is varying your diet to ensure micronutrients of all different kinds get into the works.

My wife likes to say the body works like Goldie Locks. Not too little and not too much of any one thing. I hate when she says it, but it's true.

By the way, I didn't used to be in shape like this. I was a desk-jockey lawyer for over 20 years. I started paddleboarding in 2009 and it changed my life. All courtesy of this place, the erBB. Met some people here who motivated me, inspired me, and got me to challenge myself. Best day ever for me was 8/24/2008, when this shot of a few of us at San-O was taken - I won't name the people but I still love these guys in a not-gay way. I made a deal that day to the Catalina Classic with JP. We shook hands. Changed my entire life. I since won the Classic and have gotten onto the trophy a few times. I owe the erBB.

View attachment 172029
Serious question - what do you do to keep your shoulders in shape for all that paddling? Any way to prevent getting rounded forward?
 

casa_mugrienta

Duke status
Apr 13, 2008
44,066
18,736
113
Petak Island
We know. We have the photo evidence to prove it
View attachment 172012
You're cute.

I haven’t really read everything here but my two cents….

- I just lost about 20 in 9 weeks.

I did it by simply by caloric restriction. I already “exercise” to the point of bodily damage so increasing activity was not an option.

I completely stopped eating dessert foods, sweets, processed foods. No breakfast, no lunch, as much as I can eat for dinner. Meat, potatoes, a bit of green stuff is typical.

I am hungry all the time but have more energy during the day.

- All this talk is about dietary cholesterol is a waste of time. Heart disease is almost entirely genetic. Yolo.

- Listen to whatever @sh3 is saying. I met him person. He’s a stud. He looks fit and healthy and rides very small surfboards. I’m guessing he’s in his mid forties.

If I was gay I’d be parked out in front of his house right now hoping to get a glimpse of him rinsing off his wetsuit.

View attachment 172025
I don't think that is sustainable. Your bod is starving much of the day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sh3

sh3

Michael Peterson status
Dec 1, 2008
2,584
3,496
113
Serious question - what do you do to keep your shoulders in shape for all that paddling? Any way to prevent getting rounded forward?
A lot of stretching, what I call "rolling-and-smashing" (which is foam rolling and using soft balls, lacrosse balls, and theraguns on muscles), as well as body work and chiropractic. It's a constant battle. I like to wear a posture shirt about twice a month, too. With all that padding, your traps get big and you do become more prone to headaches, so you've gotta stay ahead of it.

Mind you, I think I'm done paddling for distance now. There's a willingness to suffer that is necessary, which I still have but it's not as strong as it once was. I thought I'd win the Classic in 2022 when everything went off the rails mid-race and I tore my arm apart. I'd much MUCH rather surf, so I made the decision to look 30 years into my future to ensure I can still do it. TMI
 

Mr J

Michael Peterson status
Aug 18, 2003
2,271
1,492
113
Regional Vic, Australia
I turned 62 last month. Still surf a shortboard comfortably. I'm 5'11, 165 lbs and the last board I got was a 5'10 Pyzel RT and it feels like the perfect size for me. I'm only good for about 2 hours max in the water though, at least in order to fully recover by the next day. Fitness has always been a lifestyle, so my story may add some credence to Attia's work.

Also, as I mentioned in an earlier post, in the last few years I've noticed how dramatic proper nutrition can be for an old active person.
you are doing really well. Some of that would be due to fortunate biomechanically robust genetics - some peoples joints and back for example just aren't going to handle it. Keep on shortboaring, its use it or lose it, I am not against mid lengths and went thu a phase of switching between short and a Takayama egg in my 40s, several sessions in a row on that made getting back in tune with the shortie harder. Like you said on the Attia thread train to shortboar at 70 which I think requires a lot of shortboaring in our 60s.

You also have an allergy/intolerance to lectins and you think gluten. You also posted a while back about the somewhat medically unrecognised "leaky gut" condition - I'm convinced I had that about 20 years ago - I can't prove it because its not conventionally recognised! Mine was for reasons completely different to food intolerances - I have a motility problem - when that was overcome leaky gut symptoms not come back. I thrive on lectins nowadays and I did try a very rigorous elimination of gluten - made no difference. Its good that you posted about that in case it helps someone who is similar, but myself and possibly most people do not have that intolerance.

PS @ReForest on the subject of allergies did the carnivore diet cure your eczema? Plant sources are apparently more likely to be a source of allergies than meat. I am not arguing with the fitness body composition benefits that you have experienced, but the carnivore diet appears to be a more restrictive version of the keto diet and maybe your benefits come from going keto not from eliminating veggies. Just a thought, I'm not a nutritionist!
 
  • Like
Reactions: ReForest

estreet

Miki Dora status
Feb 19, 2021
5,154
4,490
113
Southern Cali
You also have an allergy/intolerance to lectins
I'm sure some people are more sensitive than others, but generally speaking all animals are intolerant because they're 'designed' by plants to be anti-nutrients. There is no controversy that they're anti-nutrients. It's rather that we've adapted to some varieties better than others. For the ones that we're not well adapted to I think it's like death by a thousand cuts, and the effects start to especially be expressed with age. Arthritis, for instance, is generally accepted a natural part of aging. It is for the sad (standard American diet) diet. A low lectin diet cured my life long eczema and the arthritis that was starting to develop in my fingers in recent years, both autoimmune issues.
 

Mike_Jones

Tom Curren status
Mar 5, 2009
11,642
2,406
113
.
Name the person who ever died of high cholesterol.

Cholesterol is a requirement of human life. Cholesterol particles are little balloons filled with fat derivatives (acetone triglycerides). The walls of the balloons are lipoproteins, just like cellular and mitochondrial membranes. The liver creates cholesterol particles for the purpose of feeding fat to cells while replenishing their spent membrane lipoproteins.

The only bad cholesterol particles are compact low density lipoprotein (CLDL) particles. They are essentially dead cholesterol membranes, left over when a glycated (sugar-fied) liver fails to create healthy cholesterol particles. High serum triglyceride concentration is the other result of the same process failure.

I'm proud to go out on this limb. Disregard the entire cholesterol panel except for two entries: 1) Physical CLDL count per blood volume, and 2) Triglyceride blood concentration. The rest is meaningless, and varies only with patient genetics.

There are no such things as eating or avoiding eating cholesterol. For the reasons I covered the diet changes necessary for avoiding circulatory disease are to avoid alcohol and fructose (anything which tastes sweet).

Eat lots of fats,. saturated and unsaturated so you can make abundant healthy cholesterol. The only difference between saturated and unsaturated fats is the temperature where liquid turns to solid.
.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: ReForest and sh3

Duffy LaCoronilla

Duke status
Apr 27, 2016
39,696
29,808
113
@Duffy LaCoronilla - Dude. I'm in my mid-50s. Also, caloric restriction can have significantly negative impacts on your metabolism when done over time. Don't deny yourself, but also don't overdo it. As someone said above, moderation is key. As is varying your diet to ensure micronutrients of all different kinds get into the works.
I hit 199 this morning. Time to add in lunch and kettlebells. Going to shoot for maintaining 200-205 range. Still have some body fat to lose and hope to replace it with some muscle. It’s pretty difficult to put on any kind of real muscle mass at our ages but I can make some improvements.

Probably run my T levels up to 900-950 (12-13 free).:jamon:
 
  • Like
Reactions: ReForest and sh3

One-Off

Tom Curren status
Jul 28, 2005
14,334
10,609
113
33.8N - 118.4W
I read Attia’s book and what seemed unique in his approach to aging is how he kind of reverse engineers it, determining what you’d like to be able to do at an advanced age and then training to meet that goal. For example, if you want to shortboard at 70 you may have to train to maintain mussel mass, cardiovascular capacity, flexibility, and balance, as well as eat well, in order to have that ability at 70.
I saw a video where he talked about what you’d like to be able do in your last decade of life. I took that to mean in my 90’s. ;) I have a grandpa who lived to 103 and was golfing a full round until at least 97 (when the local paper did a front page feature in him). Myself, I’d like to be hiking around the mountains in my 90’s. I’ve met lots of folks on the trails in their 80’s. Don’t know about 90s. I’d like to be surfing in my 80s. I know one fellow who surfs in his late 70s on the mellow days. But I don’t know that any of those people “trained” for it. Grandpa never trained, just walked every day (and drank a martini every evening). I’m starting to do that training now that I have the time (retired) and fukkin enjoy it.

As far as eternity goes, the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveler returns, I think I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it. Lord have mercy.
 

Mr J

Michael Peterson status
Aug 18, 2003
2,271
1,492
113
Regional Vic, Australia
.
Name the person who ever died of high cholesterol.

Cholesterol is a requirement of human life. Cholesterol particles are little balloons filled with fat derivatives (acetone triglycerides). The walls of the balloons are lipoproteins, just like cellular and mitochondrial membranes. The liver creates cholesterol particles for the purpose of feeding fat to cells while replenishing their spent membrane lipoproteins.

The only bad cholesterol particles are compact low density lipoprotein (CLDL) particles. They are essentially dead cholesterol membranes, left over when a glycated (sugar-fied) liver fails to create healthy cholesterol particles. High serum triglyceride concentration is the other result of the same process failure.

I'm proud to go out on this limb. Disregard the entire cholesterol panel except for two entries: 1) Physical CLDL count per blood volume, and 2) Triglyceride blood concentration. The rest is meaningless, and varies only with patient genetics.

There are no such things as eating or avoiding eating cholesterol. For the reasons I covered the diet changes necessary for avoiding circulatory disease are to avoid alcohol and fructose (anything which tastes sweet).

Eat lots of fats,. saturated and unsaturated so you can make abundant healthy cholesterol. The only difference between saturated and unsaturated fats is the temperature where liquid turns to solid.
.
I had a look into what you said and your first paragraph appears to have given a good description - although ai said not exactly balloons, but more like droplets, but that droplet does have a outer layer and a core. I didn't know any of that. If we want to get even more technical then those droplets are actually lipoprotein with cholesterol embedded in the outer and inner core. The lipoprotein droplets are to transport the cholesterol which is in both the outer and layer and core. Regardless of particle size and whether the lipoprotein is HDL or LDL, the cholesterol that is transported remains the same. This is maybe what you mean by no one "ever died of high cholesterol"

AI had a bit of an issue with your second paragraph,
The statement made by your fellow forum member contains some inaccuracies. Let’s break it down:
  1. Compact Low-Density Lipoprotein (CLDL) Particles:
    • There is no widely recognized category of “compact LDL” particles specifically referred to as CLDL.
    • However, the concept of small, dense LDL (sdLDL) particles exists. These are smaller and denser than regular LDL particles.
    • sdLDL particles are associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular disease because they can penetrate artery walls more easily and are more susceptible to oxidation.
    • It’s essential to note that not all LDL particles are harmful. The distinction lies in their size and density.
  2. ...
  3. It went on a bit, but did note that your statement contains some elements of truth and regardless of how pedantic ai wants to be I am generally happy with the general point of your statement and found it informative (y)
If you say you can get a blood panel giving CLDL then I won't argue with that - I can't get that, however being informed about sdLDLs and their existence is helpful to me.

I asked what is the product when sdLDL is oxidised and the answer was not CLDL it was oxidised LDL which is bad because its more "sticky" and plaques the arteries.

Sugar doesn't directly do the oxidisation, but it has the compounding bad effect of glycating LDL to produce gLDL which is more easily oxidised and also causing the liver to produce more sdLDL which is also more easily oxidised, on top of that the sdLDLs are more easily glycated. It doesn't need to be sugar either, any carb with a comparably high glycaemic index will have that effect - eg. some white breads and rice. A reason why processed carbs are bad is that they frequently have a higher glycaemic index than their unprocessed version. Some unprocessed carbs such as potatoes can have a very high GI though.

Years ago I was doing a lot of distance cycling on a high carb diet and my "cholesterol" levels were too high. Both HDL and LDL and that was back in the day when risk profiles were based on overall levels although they did know by then that HDL was probably protective. Doc told me to reduce fat and it got worse - so I agree with you, I Iike to have a lot of fat in my diet. Everything I read is saying sugar is bad too. I don't want to go keto, but I keep carbs modest.

So there is one problem I have with your statement "saturated and unsaturated so you can make abundant healthy cholesterol. The only difference between saturated and unsaturated fats is the temperature where liquid turns to solid."

Every time I ask ai how I can keep sdLDLs down the advice includes limit saturated fat. There is also a lot more to the difference between them than different melting points. So until convinced otherwise I'm going to keep my diet high in monounsaturated fats and fish oils and keep saturated intake low.
 
  • Like
Reactions: One-Off

Mr J

Michael Peterson status
Aug 18, 2003
2,271
1,492
113
Regional Vic, Australia
... a glycated (sugar-fied) liver fails to create healthy cholesterol particles. High serum triglyceride concentration is the other result of the same process failure.
... .
When I read that I thought to myself that doesn't sound right, isn't it the LDL getting that's getting glycated and not the liver. So I delved into that this morning.

While its true that the LDL gets glycated when subjected to a high carbohydrate load like AI was telling me about yesterday and the glycation of those particles takes place in the bloodstream not the liver you are absolutely right in saying that the liver can literally get glycated too!

This is because living tissue in general can get glycated and the liver is no exception. Glycated cells are damaged cells. When I asked ai if glycated liver cells was the mechanism for producing bad proportions of the bad/good particle sizes it didn't go out on a limb and give a definite yes, but it did suggest it might play a role/contribute and went on about how a high carb/sugar load is associated with Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD).

NAFLD causes the liver to do bad things. So I asked AI how can I reduce my risk of NAFLD, yet again it told me to limit the saturated fats, swap them out for fats from things such as avocados. There is a whole raft of other things we can do to avoid NAFLD too. Nevertheless, everything is telling me that saturated fat is a bad actor - where did you get this information that its ok to indulge in the saturated fats?
 
Last edited: