Piggish shortboards?

One-Off

Kelly Slater status
Jul 28, 2005
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I'm in the process of making a 6-11, more of a mid length than a shortboard, but performance oriented. I pushed the wide point back 2" behind center, something I have not done for a while. After I cut it out it looked kind of weird to me.

I'm wondering if anyone has a piggish, no nose, kind of shortboard? What are the ride characteristics? Pros cons?

Ironically, where I grew up (Palos Verdes) in the 70's, what we called "no noses" were very popular. I never saw them anywhere else. J. Lessing (JL) was the king of that design. Elsewhere wide points were pushed very far forward.
 
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One-Off

Kelly Slater status
Jul 28, 2005
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Bump for the late night crew.

Anybody have observations about moving wide point back? I've noticed in recent years there has been more of a tendency to move it forward, whereas, say in the 90's- 00's the wide point was generally center of aft of center.
 

jkb

Kelly Slater status
Feb 22, 2005
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It'll make the board feel a little shorter than it is and it'll be easier to turn.

I haven't connected with a lot of widepoint forward boards because they feel long to me.
 
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Swallow Tail

Legend (inyourownmind)
Oct 6, 2017
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Don’t over think it. what you’re looking for , pretty much all very shaper has done them.

Look at ALL the hips in One Off’s post. Merrick is a full on hipster.

I like a subtle hip-have made identical boards w only change being a hip/no hip. Hip makes initiating turns easier…

if you’re surfing off the tail. If it’s gonna be a ride-from-the-middle type of affair, then I’d say youre not going to get that benefit and more likely hinder performance, and that’s prob why you see nice gentle curves/no hip on a lot of mid lengths.YMMV
 
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oeste858

Michael Peterson status
Sep 11, 2017
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It'll make the board feel a little shorter than it is and it'll be easier to turn.

I haven't connected with a lot of widepoint forward boards because they feel long to me.
Yeah, think you’re right about feeling longer than they are. After a few yrs of riding fish & stubby boars, I notice my front foot wants to find the wide point. So now that I’ve been riding a couple boars 6’3-6’7, I tend to surf from the middle of boar more when the wide point is fwd of center. At least once per session, I find my feet too far fwd when I go to crank a turn.
Still, i think at this point it’d be hard to go back to a 90’s needle nose boar. I’d miss the paddle power of the foam under the chest to much. Besides, I’m not tryin to knife in at Pipe or anything.
 
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rowjimmytour

Kelly Slater status
Feb 7, 2009
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Yeah, think you’re right about feeling longer than they are. After a few yrs of riding fish & stubby boars, I notice my front foot wants to find the wide point. So now that I’ve been riding a couple boars 6’3-6’7, I tend to surf from the middle of boar more when the wide point is fwd of center. At least once per session, I find my feet too far fwd when I go to crank a turn.
Still, i think at this point it’d be hard to go back to a 90’s needle nose boar. I’d miss the paddle power of the foam under the chest to much. Besides, I’m not tryin to knife in at Pipe or anything.
My wide point forward boards are shorter then what I usually ride I have four (stubby dd and grovel-6 height, hpsb -1 height, and step up +7 height) that all work very well and ride as if they were longer:shaka:
 

One-Off

Kelly Slater status
Jul 28, 2005
9,498
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more pivot under your feetss?

Idk man a 6'11 in so cal is more like a gun for the larger/largest days kind of boar though
Thanks for the replies. They mostly confirmed what I was thinking but I did not want to say my piece until I heard from others.

My objective was to ride a longer board from the tail. I've been riding a 7-4 since my back injury. My attempts to ride my old daily driver 6-0 twinzer never went well (I'm 60 with a bad back). If you remember I made a 6-6 twinzer with wide point forward to try to ride something shorter. It caught waves great but I didn't like the ride (although, if I listen to Griffin, it's because I made a diamond tail). I still had to shuffle back to do a good carving cutback. With the 7-4 I can tell by my booties' imprints that my back foot gets back to the front fins. I am not conscious of shuffling on the 7-4. With a 6" reduction in length I should get it back over the cluster.

7-4 went great this swell in 10 foot faces. :jamon:

6-10 should be better. Shorter, slightly thinner rails. I used the tail template pulled off the 7-4.
 
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Mr J

Michael Peterson status
Aug 18, 2003
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...My objective was to ride a longer board from the tail. ...
Yes I think you are on the right track there. Narrow nose, wide point back, wide in the aft region will all produce a board that allow you to stand further back and turn some extra length of board more easily. You don't have to incorporate all 3 of these - when I saw the title I pictured the original pig longboard - quite wide, sort of cigar shaped thing and I thought of the McCoy Nugget. This has a narrow nose, very wide in the aft region, it looks like it has wide point back, but that is an optical illusion, when I put the tape measure and rocker stick on one I borrowed it is exactly in the middle. The one I borrowed was 6' 6" which is an enormous amount of litres and planing area for me. Despite this it did top to bottom turns really well once I got used to it and had really good sort of drivey glide. Keeping the wide point in the middle stopped it from become too pivoty and lacking drive.

In comparison I borrowed much longer ago a copy of a Schroff Blaster (mentioned by @enframed above) - when I say copy, the owner had put in a custom order for a copy based only on a photograph in Surfer magazine, so it probably was completely different in all but outline. This was a short board and it went awful for me - really pivoty, no drive.

I also borrowed a copy based on an outline pic alone of one of Cheyne Horan's most extreme Lazer Zap outlines - the one with a "bum" tail - that's what we called them anyway due to the way it resembled buttocks. Because it had so much planing area it did motor along quite well in a gliding way - unlike the Blaster copy which didn't really want to go anywhere for me. This Zap design was not drivey though.

I didn't measure them, but I think the Blaster and Zap copies I borrowed would have incorporated all 3 of those pivot aiding qualities I mentioned.

Because you are going for 6' 10" in length that's going to help stopping it from becoming too pivoty. Also judging by the pics you posted of the retro short boars it looks like you aren't after anything with extreme width in the tail, so I reckon you could combine all 3 of those qualities mentioned i.e narrow nose, wide point with some area towards the fins by adding a bump wing or some extra curve in that region - as mentioned by @Swallow Tail

@casa_mugrienta posted a nice video of Creed McTaggert ordering such a boar. I really enjoy watching Creed - his regular ride seems to be longish HPSBs and he makes them look good. It seems Creed didn't score great waves, but demonstrates that it can be ridden in regular waves. The shaper Ben Webb features in the vid and puts on a good display of this design. You could go to his website and look at his "Vault" design for inspiration.


I look forward to seeing what you produce, I'm quite jealous that you are in a position to whip the planer out and quickly iterate thru designs! I am not sure if I am going to have enough time to do my annual build this year. If I do it will be iteration 4 of my computer design over 5 years - a painfully slow way to develop a design :D
 
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Mr J

Michael Peterson status
Aug 18, 2003
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... I've noticed in recent years there has been more of a tendency to move it forward, whereas, say in the 90's- 00's the wide point was generally center of aft of center.
Yes, the Pyzel Ghost and Rusty BlackBird are wide point/width forward type boards. I have Simon Anderson's biography "Thrust", his original design did have wide point back.

One thing that comes to mind is that the idea of these "new" width forward designs is produce shorter step ups - get into waves earlier with some extra planing area up front. To use this area effectively the entry rocker is lowish. When I put the rocker stick on the McCoy Nugget I do remember it being very high nose rocker.

So maybe make a high nose rocker boar?
 

One-Off

Kelly Slater status
Jul 28, 2005
9,498
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33.8N - 118.4W
Yes, the Pyzel Ghost and Rusty BlackBird are wide point/width forward type boards. I have Simon Anderson's biography "Thrust", his original design did have wide point back.

One thing that comes to mind is that the idea of these "new" width forward designs is produce shorter step ups - get into waves earlier with some extra planing area up front. To use this area effectively the entry rocker is lowish. When I put the rocker stick on the McCoy Nugget I do remember it being very high nose rocker.

So maybe make a high nose rocker boar?
After having made and ridden a couple wide point forward boards recently, I don't get the idea of using forward wide point to make a shorter step up if it "rides longer" as a couple people here have said

The board I'm shaping has very relaxed rocker- 4" nose, 2-1/4" tail.

While pondering this question I went back and watched some of Cheyne Horan's videos riding the Zap and was very unimpressed.
 
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TeamScam

Miki Dora status
Jan 14, 2002
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I struggled, still consciously having to try harder to ride a more forward wide point as of late when trying to come back to hpsb-ish from me dark crutchland funshape/bigboy zone. Autopilot didn't kick in like it used to, and that turned out to be one of the main things riding newer boards compared to 90's and early 00's. And about 20lbs of Flubber. Old dog--> new tricks adage applies.
 

Mr J

Michael Peterson status
Aug 18, 2003
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Regional Vic, Australia
After having made and ridden a couple wide point forward boards recently, I don't get the idea of using forward wide point to make a shorter step up if it "rides longer" as a couple people here have said

The board I'm shaping has very relaxed rocker- 4" nose, 2-1/4".

While pondering this question I went back and watched some of Cheyne Horan's videos riding the Lap and was very unimpressed.
I have no interest in owning/making a wide point forward HP/stepup either. My annual build is a narrowish nose, highish nose rocker, moderate tail rocker, wide pt back just an inch. I am very happy with the direction it is heading. Tail a fraction over 14" so not following the zap, nugget type model either - that would be hard to control for me when the waves get bigger. I prefer the look of the Greg Webb Vault and the Merrick boards you posted.
 
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