***Official FIRES thread***

Icu812

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Jun 23, 2013
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This is a long read but underlines the reality of what's going on in our forests:

Forest Fire Suppression

Friends - for 20 years I have spent time in burned landscapes, with fire experts, biologists, foresters and ecologists. I have also visited with home safety experts, firefighters and first responders.

Last year I testified numerous times to the Oregon Wildfire Council about the need for Oregonians to harden their homes to fire.

I have also spent the last three years with Trip Jennings and Sara Quinn making films about fire in the West and the solutions. The feature length film is called Elemental and it is almost complete. The message from the experts is clear.

1) most big fires are driven by drought and wind (climate) not by the amount of fuels or forest conditions. While vegetation and topography are important factors, remember grasslands and shrublands burn too. In CA this year nearly 65 percent of landscapes that burned so far were not forestlands (as of Sept 6)

2) forest management - thinning, logging, clearing is a shot in the dark at reducing fire severity or risk and oftentimes it increases fire severity and danger. Around homes thinning can help to reduce the immediate risk and provide for defensible space, but in the backcountry or further from homes it makes little to no difference in terms of home safety. And the forest grows back. We do not have enough money to tend 350 million acres, and often the tending is logging that takes the most fire resistant material.

3) in extreme fire weather firefighters just try to help people escape. They don’t have enough “wet stuff to put on the red stuff” as they say. We need to stop believing that firefighting will save us and put out fires. In Detroit-Idanha, the firefighters fled. In Paradise the first responders told us they would have needed EVERY fire truck from ALL of California in town within 1 hour to be able to save SOME of the homes. The fire hit the town in about 2-3 hours after ignition as it moved very rapidly (3x normal rates) through previously logged and salvaged areas.

AND, most important

4) if we want to protect homes and communities from fire, then we have to harden our homes to fire, prevent ember penetration and home ignition. We have to make our homes less ignitable. And it is relatively easy and not high cost. Cover vents, clean gutters, hardscape perimeter, use non-flammable materials on the exterior...

As to the long held belief, promoted by industry, that it is a problem in our forests, that logging-management-thinning can solve it — well it does not hold up to scrutiny. Trying to make forests less flammable is like trying to make the ocean less wet. Let’s take a look at just one example.

Last night the Bear fire in the northern Sierra Nevada blew up.

This area has been heavily logged over the past couple of decades--clearcuts, commercial thinning, "salvage" logging of snags, you name it, mostly on private lands but also quite a bit on National Forests too. The Bear fire just dramatically expanded today when it got to this massive area of heavy logging. The fire is now over 200,000 acres (mostly from last 24 hours), and at least three people have been killed as of now. There will likely be more.

This situation is very much like the Camp fire that hit Paradise in terms of the direct threat of recent logging to lives and homes, by contributing, along with the dominant force of extreme weather and climate change, to very rapid rate of fire spread, giving people little time to evacuate.

At this point, anyone--including you and any reporters, agency or university scientists--who is still promoting logging as "fuel reduction", and saying the problem is in our forests, or a lack of firefighting resources — or denying the fact that weather and climate change are the dominant drivers of fire behavior - or not acknowledging the fact that logging is a substantial additional contributor to increased fire spread and intensity, is really just putting people at greater risk.
 

PRCD

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Feb 25, 2020
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1) most big fires are driven by drought and wind (climate) not by the amount of fuels or forest conditions. While vegetation and topography are important factors, remember grasslands and shrublands burn too. In CA this year nearly 65 percent of landscapes that burned so far were not forestlands (as of Sept 6)
I think we need to re-plant the perennial bunch grasses that covered California before the Spanish planted the grass that turns brown in the summer that made better feed for cattle.

The problem with saying, "Climate change" is that it's a form of fatalism. People live in harsh environments and improve them all the time. Imagine if this guy just wailed, "Climate change" and did nothing about his property:

I like your controlled burn idea. I think we should still log and use grazing animals. It's not an "either/or" but "AND."
 

afoaf

Duke status
Jun 25, 2008
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yet another "peaceful protest" :foreheadslap:


it's not good bro. :confused:
"all these fires"

this is one guy...who, btw, got arrested three times in 48 hours and might just be fkn bonkers


ANTIFA is setting up volunteer aid stations in Oregon


given the stats, the more appropriate post would have read:

Pretty cool how BLM antifa starting all these relief stations in oregon

Too bad idiots keep spreading false rumors on the internet

do you people just eat up any and all bullshit you hear on the internet?
 
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sdsurfrat

Michael Peterson status
Jun 2, 2008
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"all these fires"
given the stats, the more appropriate post would have read:
do you people just eat up any and all bullshit you hear on the internet?
Why the attack bro?
This is not the politics forum, there is some sense of decorum here.

You don't like dem facts?
Here's a few more:

The New York Post reported:
An Oregon man was charged with using a Molotov cocktail to start a brush blaze in the wildfire-devastated state — then busted again just hours later for allegedly going back and starting six more, cops said.
Domingo Lopez Jr., 45, was first arrested Sunday afternoon after witnesses told cops he started a fire on the grassy edge of a Portland freeway with an incendiary device made out of a plastic bottle with a wick, the Portland Police Bureau said.
He admitted starting the blaze, which was extinguished without any injuries or property damage, cops said.


pic.twitter.com/hW2f1BCh77




Woman in Oregon caught someone on her property with matches and held him until police showed up. pic.twitter.com/zefFthWPzI



the first antifa guy alone, Domingo Lopez, has admitted to starting seven wildfires!!! :foreheadslap:

a quick cursory search has turned up many more of dem blm atifa arsonists.

This would, in my humble opinion constitute, "all these fires"
but don't let the facts get in your way.
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:




 

Bob Dobbalina

Miki Dora status
Feb 23, 2016
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yet another "peaceful protest" :foreheadslap:


it's not good bro. :confused:

I missed the part where this was considered a protest or having anything to do with some cause or larger affiliation....

The New York Post (a glorified tabloid) actually did not mention any sort of protest, BLM, or ANTIF except when it siad that it literally had NOTHING to do with it.

The "Law Enforcement Today" article mentioned nothing and literally has an amendment to the headline talking about how they are not related to any organized efforts or organizations. \

Not one of those articles mentioned anything of the sort.

Not sure what you're doing here.
 
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Bob Dobbalina

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@sdsurfrat and others

Don't turn this thread into a political pissing match. Keep those arguments on politics forum please.

The only politics in this thread should be a careful consideration of whether "responsible logging" as a wildfire defense is a true defense or a product of effective lobbying by the logging and logging adjacent industry, whether state, county, and federal $$ is allocated appropriately and impactfully to save lives and property.

The mere insinuation of other groups is silly
 
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the janitor

Tom Curren status
Mar 28, 2003
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north of the bridge
This is a long read but underlines the reality of what's going on in our forests:

At this point, anyone--including you and any reporters, agency or university scientists--who is still promoting logging as "fuel reduction", and saying the problem is in our forests, or a lack of firefighting resources — or denying the fact that weather and climate change are the dominant drivers of fire behavior - or not acknowledging the fact that logging is a substantial additional contributor to increased fire spread and intensity, is really just putting people at greater risk.
Interesting, so this seems to contradict or at least side step the notion that by suppressing fires in our forests we've inadvertently built up a ton of fuel in them, which leads to more intense fires when they do kick off in those zones.

What's you take on that?
 

afoaf

Duke status
Jun 25, 2008
49,204
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Why the attack bro?
This is not the politics forum, there is some sense of decorum here.

You don't like dem facts?
Here's a few more:

The New York Post reported:
An Oregon man was charged with using a Molotov cocktail to start a brush blaze in the wildfire-devastated state — then busted again just hours later for allegedly going back and starting six more, cops said.
Domingo Lopez Jr., 45, was first arrested Sunday afternoon after witnesses told cops he started a fire on the grassy edge of a Portland freeway with an incendiary device made out of a plastic bottle with a wick, the Portland Police Bureau said.
He admitted starting the blaze, which was extinguished without any injuries or property damage, cops said.


pic.twitter.com/hW2f1BCh77




Woman in Oregon caught someone on her property with matches and held him until police showed up. pic.twitter.com/zefFthWPzI



the first antifa guy alone, Domingo Lopez, has admitted to starting seven wildfires!!! :foreheadslap:

a quick cursory search has turned up many more of dem blm atifa arsonists.

This would, in my humble opinion constitute, "all these fires"
but don't let the facts get in your way.
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

interesting how your quick, cursory search yielded three posts for whackos burning
pallets in alleyways.

no decorum and zero patience for people spreading misinformation in the middle of
a proper crisis...


vigilante groups in Oregon are setting up roadblocks and fkng with people because of
bullshit online rumormongering...(when) will someone get shot over partisan bullshit
being flung on the internet?

that psychopath allegedly started a fire in a highway median

tell us more about how BLMANTIFA hiked in to Kern River Valley or up in to Mono Pools
under cover of dry lightning events to start multi-thousand acre wildfires

 

r32

Administrator
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Apr 1, 2005
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Cambria
Excellent use of the word 'cursory'. Not a word you get to work into conversations often.
 
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afoaf

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Jun 25, 2008
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I was unnecessarily harsh in my language

sorry for being such a bitch, sdsurfrat

you're always a chill dude; you likely didn't make your original post with the intent I inferred

I blame this fkn distance learning bullshit
 
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sdsurfrat

Michael Peterson status
Jun 2, 2008
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interesting how your quick, cursory search yielded three posts for whackos burning
pallets in alleyways.

no decorum and zero patience for people spreading misinformation in the middle of
a proper crisis...


vigilante groups in Oregon are setting up roadblocks and fkng with people because of
bullshit online rumormongering...(when) will someone get shot over partisan bullshit
being flung on the internet?

that psychopath allegedly started a fire in a highway median

tell us more about how BLMANTIFA hiked in to Kern River Valley or up in to Mono Pools
under cover of dry lightning events to start multi-thousand acre wildfires


idk :shameonyou:

By any means necessary i guess...








I'd like to protest her.:roflmao:
C'mon honey, put down the gas can...
 
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Icu812

Nep status
Jun 23, 2013
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Interesting, so this seems to contradict or at least side step the notion that by suppressing fires in our forests we've inadvertently built up a ton of fuel in them, which leads to more intense fires when they do kick off in those zones.

What's you take on that?
Well, that's true in a lot of places...the fuels that build up are understory fuels, many of which were not there when we usurpers showed up. Indigenous cultures knew how to use fire to burn that material regularly. Also, as mentioned in that article, old growth trees are way more hardened to fire than younger trees. But those thin fuels that build up really burn fast and hot when there's wind on it. That's why I'm a firm believer in using prescribed burning as a tool to try to get rid of as much of that as possible early in the season.
 

ElOgro

Duke status
Dec 3, 2010
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Well, that's true in a lot of places...the fuels that build up are understory fuels, many of which were not there when we usurpers showed up. Indigenous cultures knew how to use fire to burn that material regularly. Also, as mentioned in that article, old growth trees are way more hardened to fire than younger trees. But those thin fuels that build up really burn fast and hot when there's wind on it. That's why I'm a firm believer in using prescribed burning as a tool to try to get rid of as much of that as possible early in the season.
What has changed in your area in the 40+ years you’ve lived there? Insight on why?
 

Why_was_I_banned

Billy Hamilton status
Sep 5, 2020
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This is a long read but underlines the reality of what's going on in our forests:

Forest Fire Suppression

Friends - for 20 years I have spent time in burned landscapes, with fire experts, biologists, foresters and ecologists. I have also visited with home safety experts, firefighters and first responders.

Last year I testified numerous times to the Oregon Wildfire Council about the need for Oregonians to harden their homes to fire.

I have also spent the last three years with Trip Jennings and Sara Quinn making films about fire in the West and the solutions. The feature length film is called Elemental and it is almost complete. The message from the experts is clear.

1) most big fires are driven by drought and wind (climate) not by the amount of fuels or forest conditions. While vegetation and topography are important factors, remember grasslands and shrublands burn too. In CA this year nearly 65 percent of landscapes that burned so far were not forestlands (as of Sept 6)

2) forest management - thinning, logging, clearing is a shot in the dark at reducing fire severity or risk and oftentimes it increases fire severity and danger. Around homes thinning can help to reduce the immediate risk and provide for defensible space, but in the backcountry or further from homes it makes little to no difference in terms of home safety. And the forest grows back. We do not have enough money to tend 350 million acres, and often the tending is logging that takes the most fire resistant material.

3) in extreme fire weather firefighters just try to help people escape. They don’t have enough “wet stuff to put on the red stuff” as they say. We need to stop believing that firefighting will save us and put out fires. In Detroit-Idanha, the firefighters fled. In Paradise the first responders told us they would have needed EVERY fire truck from ALL of California in town within 1 hour to be able to save SOME of the homes. The fire hit the town in about 2-3 hours after ignition as it moved very rapidly (3x normal rates) through previously logged and salvaged areas.

AND, most important

4) if we want to protect homes and communities from fire, then we have to harden our homes to fire, prevent ember penetration and home ignition. We have to make our homes less ignitable. And it is relatively easy and not high cost. Cover vents, clean gutters, hardscape perimeter, use non-flammable materials on the exterior...

As to the long held belief, promoted by industry, that it is a problem in our forests, that logging-management-thinning can solve it — well it does not hold up to scrutiny. Trying to make forests less flammable is like trying to make the ocean less wet. Let’s take a look at just one example.

Last night the Bear fire in the northern Sierra Nevada blew up.

This area has been heavily logged over the past couple of decades--clearcuts, commercial thinning, "salvage" logging of snags, you name it, mostly on private lands but also quite a bit on National Forests too. The Bear fire just dramatically expanded today when it got to this massive area of heavy logging. The fire is now over 200,000 acres (mostly from last 24 hours), and at least three people have been killed as of now. There will likely be more.

This situation is very much like the Camp fire that hit Paradise in terms of the direct threat of recent logging to lives and homes, by contributing, along with the dominant force of extreme weather and climate change, to very rapid rate of fire spread, giving people little time to evacuate.

At this point, anyone--including you and any reporters, agency or university scientists--who is still promoting logging as "fuel reduction", and saying the problem is in our forests, or a lack of firefighting resources — or denying the fact that weather and climate change are the dominant drivers of fire behavior - or not acknowledging the fact that logging is a substantial additional contributor to increased fire spread and intensity, is really just putting people at greater risk.
Yes, yes, yes.

I've built three homes in high fire danger areas. All three have had wild fires surround them all three survived when others nearby didn't.

The county of Ventura had very stringent codes when building in high fire areas.

Lots of simple things that save the structure when firefighters aren't available.

Choice of exterior building materials and the surrounding landscape/ hardscape are the most important.

Keep fuels off the building. Put that pretty tree in the back yard, not text to the house with branches hanging over the roof.

A block wall instead of a cedar fence.

Roof vents on top of the roof, and not in the eaves.

A sidewalk, or even a gravel path all the way around the structure.

A non flammable roof, like clay or concrete tile.

And when the fire department says leave, leave. If you prepped right, your house will not burn. During the fire, there is almost nothing you can do to stop the fire, so just go.
 

PRCD

Tom Curren status
Feb 25, 2020
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Yes, yes, yes.

I've built three homes in high fire danger areas. All three have had wild fires surround them all three survived when others nearby didn't.

The county of Ventura had very stringent codes when building in high fire areas.

Lots of simple things that save the structure when firefighters aren't available.

Choice of exterior building materials and the surrounding landscape/ hardscape are the most important.

Keep fuels off the building. Put that pretty tree in the back yard, not text to the house with branches hanging over the roof.

A block wall instead of a cedar fence.

Roof vents on top of the roof, and not in the eaves.

A sidewalk, or even a gravel path all the way around the structure.

A non flammable roof, like clay or concrete tile.

And when the fire department says leave, leave. If you prepped right, your house will not burn. During the fire, there is almost nothing you can do to stop the fire, so just go.
Also, in Sonoma County, some people are rebuilding with ICF. Seems like a good idea.

Yeah if the sparks get in through the roof ventilation, you're home is done.