*** Official Corona Virus Thread ***

PRCD

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1-) good friends mother: (89 yo)

Both shots done. One month after visiting, exactly a month after his mom's second shot my buddy came down here to catch some waves. He was here for 3 weeks, and a month after returning (so, 2 months and 3 weeks after her second vax) he lost his mother.

Due to covid, according to the public autopsy. Private autopsy revealed severe clotting in her brain.

2-) mother in laws elderly residence roommate: (76 yo)

3 months after 2nd vax, died of cerebral hemorrhage.

Public autopsy: covid
Private autopsy: severe cerebral hemorrhage


3-) sister in laws ex: (48 yo)

1 month after 2nd vax, dead.

Public autopsy: covid
Private autopsy: none carried out. (His parents were too distraught to even think about it)

These above are all first hand, personally known, cases. Surely there's lots and lots of others.

:shrug:

P.S. I "thank" British tourism for covid in Fuerteventura. Before we opened up to them, the case load was strictly nominal for an island of 125,000-150,000. The week after they started coming, our cases spiked severely.

:dancing::crazy2::trout::violin:
There are several possibilities here and I'm trying not to gaslight you at all:
1. They actually caught COVID and died of it. The vaccines are leaky, meaning you can still catch COVID several months after getting vaccinated, especially if you're elderly. WHile the vaccines still prevent serious illness even after their protection against transmission and infection wanes, when you're old and frail you're old and frail. The vaccines were not tested on this group.

2. The clots were caused by vaccines. I think this effect would show up within 14 days of the second shot. They try to measure this by seeing if the background rate of these events has exceeded historic norms. IMO, this is tough to estimate. However, they used 10s of thousands of people in the original trials and didn't see these events so they're rarer than 1/100,000. This still makes for an iffy cost/benefit trade-off for a disease that only kills 1/50,000 - 1/100,000, so you have to look at rates of hospitalization from the disease and rates from adverse events of vaccines. Martin Kuldorff of Harvard and several independent contractors helped the CDC with vaccine safety surveillance, which is reassuring. OTOH, the CDC fired him for warning not to suspend J&J infections because it was unnecessary and would increase vaccine hesitancy. He was right but was fired. This is the opposite of reassuring. Science has been politicized to a dangerous level in the past 18 months:

What I'm trying to say is that there's a strong political bias in favor of ignoring adverse events which made me hesitant and still does. Also, look what happened to your wife.

3. They were simply old and died. When you get old, you're likely to die. My grandmother was vaccinated sometime around April and died last week at 100. Arguably the vaccines bought her several more months of life given the Delta's R0, but she was old.

Overall, this is not headed in a good direction. The vaccines worked as measured in the trials. and we should've just rejoiced and gone on with our lives. Instead we're headed for N rounds of freakouts over variants, boosters, continuing dubious, high-cost mitigation measures, onerous restrictions, etc. This is all headed in a bad direction.
 

youcantbeserious

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The vaccines worked as measured in the trials. and we should've just rejoiced and gone on with our lives.
Exactly. And we could have, if more people would have actually just gone out and got the damn vaccine. Instead, we have morons running around screaming about microchips, the mark of the beast, Bill Gates, Pfizer making money (duh), and Ivermectin (also Big Pharma).

Trump publicly advocated for getting vaccinated just a few weeks ago, and was boo-ed by his own supporters for it.
 

PRCD

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Exactly. And we could have, if more people would have actually just gone out and got the damn vaccine. Instead, we have morons running around screaming about microchips, the mark of the beast, Bill Gates, Pfizer making money (duh), and Ivermectin (also Big Pharma).

Trump publicly advocated for getting vaccinated just a few weeks ago, and was boo-ed by his own supporters for it.
Your understanding of the facts is in error. It's a leaky vaccine so you can still spread the the virus even if vaccinated. There are 4 billion unvaccinated people in the world along with hundreds of billions of unvaccinated animals creating variants as we speak. Your vaccine works for you, and that's it. It's not going to be eradicated like smallpox or polio because the virus mutates rapidly and has multiple animal hosts and the vaccines are leaky.

You can't move on because you can't move on. Period. Welcome to life under ZeroCOVID:
 
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youcantbeserious

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No, vaccination doesn't stop infection. But it almost completely stops serious sickness, hospitalization, and death. It brings those things down to a manageable level. It turns COVID in to what many, many liars and fools have been saying that it is on par with all along - the seasonal flu.

I am curious - what do you think we should do? Ignore COVID? Just open up and move on with our lives? Because what that seems to result in is an overwhelmed health care system, and what is to a majority of Americans an unacceptable amount of death and human suffering.

We had this momentous achievement - a vaccine that dramatically reduces the serious effects of COVID. And yet there is this concerted campaign against that very thing that is the quickest path back to normal life. Why?

Are you vaccinated?
 

PRCD

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No, vaccination doesn't stop infection. But it almost completely stops serious sickness, hospitalization, and death. It brings those things down to a manageable level. It turns COVID in to what many, many liars and fools have been saying that it is on par with all along - the seasonal flu.
There aren't many people arguing that it's just the flu. No one on here is.
I am curious - what do you think we should do? Ignore COVID? Just open up and move on with our lives? Because what that seems to result in is an overwhelmed health care system, and what is to a majority of Americans an unacceptable amount of death and human suffering.
I'll put the same question to you. At what point do you open up? What are the cost/benefit trade-offs you in the Laptop Class are asking the rest of us to make? Put in terms of amount of life saved vs. dollar cost to those harmed by the restrictions.


We had this momentous achievement - a vaccine that dramatically reduces the serious effects of COVID. And yet there is this concerted campaign against that very thing that is the quickest path back to normal life. Why?
You sound paranoid. What concerted campaign and compared to what - the government's pro-vax campaign? Also, what are the hard targets that - if met - will return us to normal life? The goalposts shift daily.

California has 90% seroprevalence for COVID antibodies according to CDPH combined with a high vaccination rate, yet we're still having cases and deaths and people in the coastal elite counties are still freaking out:
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Are you vaccinated?
Can't you read?
 

youcantbeserious

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Go ahead and talk derisively about my being in the "Laptop Class," but I have a huge stake in this. I have just under 200 employees. I operate a business where we (and by we, I mean myself and my partners, who are very, very risk averse) require vaccines for all employees, weekly testing for 50% of my staff, three times weekly for the other 50%. We all have to be masked, full time, in the office. This is obviously a massive line item in my budget. I would love there to be some firm goalposts. It would save me literally about a quarter of a million bucks over the next eight weeks. On the upside, I am employing three nurses and a COVID compliance officer, so that's four new jobs.

I would love nothing more than to know what vaccination rate in my community put us below a threshold where our hospitals were functioning normally enough to open it all back up. Our vaccination rates in Hawaii are not terrible, but our hospitals are in bad shape. I believe that politicians of any stripe want a return to normalcy. I don't believe politicians move the goalposts for power's sake, because to believe that requires me to believe in some seriously ridiculous conspiracies. To answer your question, I think normally functioning ICU's are a pretty good indicator of when you can open up. If your ICU's in California are operating normally, I say open it up, let 'er rip. Hawaii is not there yet.

I am sorry I was not up on your vaccination status. Perhaps you can clue me in to how many jobs you personally are responsible for? How many people do you employ?
 

PRCD

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Go ahead and talk derisively about my being in the "Laptop Class," but I have a huge stake in this. I have just under 200 employees. I operate a business where we (and by we, I mean myself and my partners, who are very, very risk averse) require vaccines for all employees, weekly testing for 50% of my staff, three times weekly for the other 50%.
Sounds like you're worried about getting sued, which makes me think we're all caught in a death-spiral of liability. You have my sympathies for this. Whether a person ends-up in the hospital at this point is on them. There's a vaccine. They can get it and reduce their risk to about a common cold, but they can't avoid contracting it. This is highly-contagious and it's absurd to put burdens on employers for stopping viral spread, but many employers seem to have assumed this burden. This is because of liability?

We all have to be masked, full time, in the office. This is obviously a massive line item in my budget. I would love there to be some firm goalposts. It would save me literally about a quarter of a million bucks over the next eight weeks. On the upside, I am employing three nurses and a COVID compliance officer, so that's four new jobs.
The safetyism is coming from your own camp, not the unvaccinated. You might want to look into your own tribe who can't get over fear of the virus and may be overloading hospitals out of fear, and politicians/bureaucrats failing to differentiate case severity in reporting. I have no idea what types of people you employ, but if they're obsessed with avoiding this virus then normalcy is impossible because we're all going to get it.

I would love nothing more than to know what vaccination rate in my community put us below a threshold where our hospitals were functioning normally enough to open it all back up. Our vaccination rates in Hawaii are not terrible, but our hospitals are in bad shape.
Hawaii is top 7 out of 50 states in vaccinations. You might want to look at the raw data for hospitalizations to see if you're being told the truth. The data for our county is below.
I believe that politicians of any stripe want a return to normalcy. I don't believe politicians move the goalposts for power's sake, because to believe that requires me to believe in some seriously ridiculous conspiracies.
Why does it require belief in conspiracy? People of like mind do similar things without conspiring. Are politicians known for their honesty? It sounds like your class of people (business owners) won't be holding politicians to their word. It's interesting that when push comes to shove, the real power is in the bureaucrats and politicians who are terrorizing you with the press. HI and CA are not pro-business states. CA is actually the worst. It's interesting that businessmen are getting the same treatment in both places. I am completely opposed to this and think that business owners should be treated much better, but somehow ire is being directed at people like me from people like you. :shrug:

To answer your question, I think normally functioning ICU's are a pretty good indicator of when you can open up. If your ICU's in California are operating normally, I say open it up, let 'er rip. Hawaii is not there yet.
Here's our data. ICU beds are available. There was definitely a bump from the Delta, half of which could be mild/asymptomatic cases (anxiety). Here is our seroprevalence as of 2 months ago. Beats me why we're still freaking out. :shrug:
I am sorry I was not up on your vaccination status. Perhaps you can clue me in to how many jobs you personally are responsible for? How many people do you employ?
I employ 0. I have another friend in the music business who had about 100 employees before this and he sees things exactly opposite to you. He has laid-off everyone but a skeleton crew. Another employer I talked to had his employees get vaccinated or wear a mask and is fed up with the politicians. I'm sure all are worried about liability, but the degree to which they're worried seems to depend on the types of men they are - politics, temperament, etc - and who they employ. Were I in charge of your state, I would tell everyone unvaccinated who contracts COVID and ends up in the hospital that the liability is on them. The fact that no politician has pushed for this is reprehensible.

You can always tell when people have never been responsible for the safety of others.
I've been responsible for a division of 50 junior seamen on my ship including replenishment, SAR, and flight deck operations, piloting a ship of 230 souls, was an ocean lifeguard at one of the busiest beaches in SoCal, and am a parent. So, more experience being responsible for safety than you. Much more.
 

Autoprax

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I've been responsible for a division of 50 junior seamen on my ship including replenishment, SAR, and flight deck operations, piloting a ship of 230 souls, was an ocean lifeguard at one of the busiest beaches in SoCal, and am a parent. So, more experience being responsible for safety than you. Much more.
I thought you put me on ignore?
 
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youcantbeserious

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Isn’t it shocking how in a for profit health care system, hospitals work to cut costs and maximize profits, leaving them vulnerable in times of crisis?
Yep. Should come as no shock to anyone that a for-profit system has no incentive to build expensive failsafes in to their projections and budgets for an event that hasn't happened for a century. Those are decades worth of decisions by boards of directors to maximize profits. Nothing more. Had you told any of those hospitals they needed to add capacity for a potential pandemic, you would have been ignored. Pressed it, and you would have been voted off the board, immediately.
 

youcantbeserious

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Why does it require belief in conspiracy?

Why? Because our government relies on a tax base, and poorly performing economies shrink that. There is zero incentive to prolong economic hardship and uncertainty. Not for politicians, not for governments, and certainly not for business.

I employ 0. I have another friend in the music business who had about 100 employees before this and he sees things exactly opposite to you. He has laid-off everyone but a skeleton crew. Another employer I talked to had his employees get vaccinated or wear a mask and is fed up with the politicians. I'm sure all are worried about liability, but the degree to which they're worried seems to depend on the types of men they are - politics, temperament, etc - and who they employ. Were I in charge of your state, I would tell everyone unvaccinated who contracts COVID and ends up in the hospital that the liability is on them.

You run neither a state nor a business, so why would I listen to your armchair quarterbacking about how either of those things ought to behave?
 
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PRCD

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Why? Because our government relies on a tax base, and poorly performing economies shrink that. There is zero incentive to prolong economic hardship and uncertainty. Not for politicians, not for governments, and certainly not for business.
This may have been true before the advent of MMT and debt as money, but not anymore. $31 billion was stolen from CA state coffers in unemployment fraud. This is 15% of the state's budget. Yet there are no economic consequences because our state was bailed-out by the Feds. There's so much capital available to big business that they're fairly de-coupled from the economic problems you face as a small business. Also, HI is already a welfare state, so the state doesn't need much of a small-business job creation engine because it has UBI.
You run neither a state nor a business, so why would I listen to your armchair quarterbacking about how either of those things ought to behave?
Why did you engage me in the first place then? Did you think I was governor of some state or owner of a business before this? No, you didn't. You're just playing the "I'm a big-balling business owner" card that allows you to dunk on me and evade answering any of my questions or evaluating the consequences for policies you clearly support. Good luck under the ZeroCOVID regime! :waving:
 

PRCD

Miki Dora status
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Can you math guys follow this girl

http://instagr.am/p/CT0Rk-WpPjI/
I didn't get the 1 in 61 chance of dying if you get it.

Don't they anti vaxers say the death rate is .02%?

What am I getting wrong
As usual, you're mixed-up with another chick who's hot but bad for you.

We've been over the definitions of CFR and IFR too many times. She's using the former.

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Caption: Yikes steer clear.