North County Traffic

[Ifallalot]

Everything should have a higher priority than military investment that makes only small amount of people rich and employed.

Fxd

 

[Lance Mannion]

Everything should have a higher priority than military investment that makes only small amount of people rich and employed.

Fxd

And so you have 300 people with shovels and wheelbarrows fixing roads like they
do down in Mehico.

That's the tradeoff...

That reminds me of Milton Friedmans response to some nitwit "liberals" ....err, commies in China overseeing a construction project.
When he asked why the dudes were using shovels instead of heavy equipt on this job they said it was create more jobs.

Milton: Then why not use spoons?

 

[captyoda]

Just me or is North County traffic on the 5 at an all time high? I know it's summer, but it's been this way for a year. More population?

it's still better than the LA hellhole :vomit: after you fight traffic and are off for the weekend you get to surf close outs with unfriendly asshats :hat:

 

[GDaddy]

Mass transit is expensive

So? Do you expect return on investment when you make your backyard all nice for yourself or do you do it because it makes your life better?

I can think of so many useless things that are expensive and not make anybody's life better but that we happily put on the taxpayer's bill with zero complains from the right, i.e. another fighter jet that we will never use.

Rebuilding infrastructure should have a higher priority than military investment that makes only small amount of people rich and employed.

[Shrugs] what (you think) should be and how (you think) people should act vs what apparently is and how they apparently do act


I can see why you're constantly frustrated.

 

[000]

well sh!t, lets just boot out all the transplants

 

[hammies]

1982 I worked 8 to 4 in Encinitas and lived in Coronado. 30 - 35 mins each way. Never a backup on the 5.

Yeah, I'm an old guy talking about the good old days, but traffic wise on the 5, they *were* better days.

 

[etmo]

What happened to making it the best country ever? "Easy and cheap way out", that's it, that's all we should strive for? Maybe that should be the new country slogan: "America - The way of least discomfort & least inconvenience".

Be careful, they'll kick you out of the party for being an American exceptionalist....or has Elon Musk made being an exceptionalist trendy again?

It's not about "forcing"people to do anything, it's about giving them a viable alternative that will make them WANT to live in a nicer place, close to shops and restaurants that will make them drive less.

Totally agree, but the Devil is in the details, and I think you're glossing over quite a few.

First, a great many people like what they grew up with. That's why people still live in hell-holes like Baltimore. The point is that many of those people who grew up in Suburbia will tend to like that lifestyle. They want a garage so they can play amateur woodworker on the weekend. They want a yard so they can putter around and let Fido run.

So how are you going to convince them that it's "nicer" to not have a garage, not have a yard, and that urban is what they want? No amount of marketing can take away the fact that there are tradeoffs, and large, disruptive changes in style of living when going from one to the other. You say "nicer" they disagree. That's why progress isn't happening on that end.

It's not a drastic change but it's a leap every American wasting their life in a traffic jam every day would readily take, if it existed.

Forgive me if I dispute that you speak for "every American", or even the majority.

Self drive cars are great for eliminating brake tappers and passing lane hogs but they will not alleviate traffic in the long run. You will still have a single person per Google car, now being driven bumper to bumper at 65mph.

Completely false. The self-driving Google cars are actually doing it the hard way. Once every car is self-driving, their job becomes orders of magnitude easier, because they can be networked and speak to each other. Imperceptible speed changes, miles in advance, mean you can fly through that intersection at 43 mph instead of stopping at all. Computer precision means you can interweave cars at distances no human could be trusted to safely maintain. The networking of self-driving cars is the far larger payoff than the self-driving part, and is what will solve almost all traffic issues. Here's a trivialized example: https://vimeo.com/37751380

How many defunct malls are there in Southern California? There are many more being built. How about building a mix of residential and retail area instead, where people actually want to hang out and live? How about a decent public transport network option?

First, nobody is arguing about the overbuilding in certain sectors. But, politicians create tax advantages so they can say they're stimulating the economy, and therefore rich people build malls and office space, often so far in advance that the economic conditions for which they were created no longer exist by the time they're ready for use. So that has nothing to do with this discussion. Building your 'mix' is another matter, and whether or not people "want" to live there is also another matter. You say they do, but the market says not so fast. Many still want a yard and a garage and not to share a wall with that crazy noisy family next door.

It's all very possible but it will not happen as long as profit is the main motivation factor instead of civic pride.

I agree it's all very possible, but that doesn't mean it's probable or likely or desired, and civic pride is a relative term. Many are proud of their yards and the garages in which they putter around on weekends. Self-driving cars, OTOH, are not just possible, they're here right this very second, and have been establishing a ridiculous safety record for millions of miles. They could be owned without having to drastically alter your lifestyle. But to be clear: I'm not saying self-driving cars will be adopted because we love them or want them. I'm saying they'll be forced down our throats in the name of safety.

And this profit thing, well, that's not going away any time soon, either. So there's ideal, pie-in-the-sky stuff, and there's easy, low-hanging fruit stuff. All I'm saying is that history shows which likely becomes reality and which remains a fantasy.

 

[kookycooky]

what's wrong with mixing up margarita while google car drives you?

 

[hgsouth]

We are a long way from self driving cars though. It's too hackable. We can't even keep hackers out of our regular cars these days.

http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/

http://www.wired.com/2015/07/jeep-hack-chrysler-recalls-1-4m-vehicles-bug-fix/

 

[ShiverMeTimbers]

ah, traffic. I remember that stuff.

 

[FecalFace]

Mass transit is expensive

So? Do you expect return on investment when you make your backyard all nice for yourself or do you do it because it makes your life better?

I can think of so many useless things that are expensive and not make anybody's life better but that we happily put on the taxpayer's bill with zero complains from the right, i.e. another fighter jet that we will never use.

Rebuilding infrastructure should have a higher priority than military investment that makes only small amount of people rich and employed.

[Shrugs] what (you think) should be and how (you think) people should act vs what apparently is and how they apparently do act


I can see why you're constantly frustrated.

You are deflecting.
There's a paradox in your reasoning.

I've never heard you say that the trillion dollar F-35 project that went $200 billion and two years over budget was expensive.

But improving dilapidated infrastructure and creating viable transport alternatives at fraction of that price is "expensive".

What's the return on the trillion dollar F-35 investment?
Whos life is better because of it?

Weird, you know?

 

[FecalFace]

ah, traffic. I remember that stuff.

As long as you stay in the Gorge you are golden.
I-5 around Portland is worse than North County.

 

[FecalFace]

And this profit thing, well, that's not going away any time soon, either. So there's ideal, pie-in-the-sky stuff, and there's easy, low-hanging fruit stuff. All I'm saying is that history shows which likely becomes reality and which remains a fantasy.

The "pie in the sky" is a reality in many other places. None of them claim exeptionalism, they are just pleasant places to live.

Your lack of enthusiasm for making your environment more pleasant is astounding, other than Google cars.

You make a whole argument about how people hate sitting in traffic and then you propose that we need to "convince" them to change that? What convincing do people need other than the fact that they are wasting their lives on I-5 every day? :confused2:

Forgive me if I dispute that you speak for "every American", or even the majority.

Read again. I didn't say "every American", I said "every American wasting their life in traffic".

 

[duder]

Just me or is North County traffic on the 5 at an all time high? I know it's summer, but it's been this way for a year. More population?

Fcukin'A, man. Fcukin'A :smokin:

 

[GDaddy]

You are deflecting.
There's a paradox in your reasoning.

I've never heard you say that the trillion dollar F-35 project that went $200 billion and two years over budget was expensive.

But improving dilapidated infrastructure and creating viable transport alternatives at fraction of that price is "expensive".

What's the return on the trillion dollar F-35 investment?
Whos life is better because of it?

Weird, you know?

"deflecting" ? WTF are you talking about? You're the one who one who get's angry on the visceral level every time we talk about how our society came to look like our society.

We have 2 light rail systems in San Diego County. One that shadows the south side of Hwy-78 and the other which shadows southbound Interstate-5 and eastbound Interstate-8. We've already built them on the public dime and they already exist. But as far as making a significant dent on commuter traffic goes, almost nobody uses them even though their routes go where people go.

L.A. has its light rail system and it's bus system, and they also shadow heavily congested freeway routes and - in comparison to their costs - they also don't make a dent on freeway congestion and also have not fostered redevelopment or urbanization along their routes.

Whose fault is that? Our government's fault for not deciding what's best for us and forcing us out of our cars, or the fault of all those individuals who value their personal mobility more than their "civic pride"?

We're about to build a high speed rail system in California that is aimed at a problem that basically doesn't exist, and which - in relation to its costs - won't fare anywhere near as well as even the NCTDs underachiever Sprinter Line (pun intended). As far as I can tell it's primary benefit - other than creating government-funded employment during its construction - will be to contribute to the touchy-feely civic pride thing you seem to think should be so important to everyone's life if only they were more civilized.

I think it's safe to say that you didn't arrange your own life so you could live close to where you work or so you could take better advantage (and patronize) of the public transit systems you seem to think are so critical to the well being of our society. I'm guessing that your choices have directly resulted in you *routinely* adding 100-200 mile commuter trips of your own - as a single occupant vehicle driver - to the freeway congestion problem. I'm guessing you never take the NCTD bus to go grocery shopping or for any of the other errands you could accomplish by patronizing the merchants whose businesses are located along those routes.

In lieu of any indication to the contrary my guess is that you use your single-occupant car on the same selfish individual basis as everyone else.

Now mind you, I don't begrudge you your choices so long as you're willing to live with the ethical and practical compromises in the life you have chosen without whining about them, 'cause this here's America. I just kinda LOL when you do get worked up about people who are doing the same thing that you're doing and for the same reasons you're doing it. You are impatient with people who won't make the choices you want them (but not you) to make.

 

[Lance Mannion]

The Google Car is cure is going to cure a lot of this (seriously). We may have some issues when the Chicoms or North Koreans figure out how hack into these things though.

 

[FecalFace]

"deflecting" ? WTF are you talking about? You're the one who one who get's angry on the visceral level every time we talk about how our society came to look like our society.

I'm not angry.
I'm just pointing at the hypocrisy of choosing what's expensive and what's not: a trillion dollar useless military contract = not expensive, improving infrastructure, quality of life and happiness = expensive.

We have 2 light rail systems in San Diego County. One that shadows the south side of Hwy-78 and the other which shadows southbound Interstate-5 and eastbound Interstate-8. We've already built them on the public dime and they already exist. But as far as making a significant dent on commuter traffic goes, almost nobody uses them even though their routes go where people go.

Like I said, building two rail lines with limited schedule and without additional extensive and frequent public transport hubs along the way is a useless system and that's why nobody uses it. You still need the car to get to and from the train, you might as well just drive yourself to work.

It's a half-ass system - a compromise, not a solution. Kind of like Obamacare.

Whose fault is that? Our government's fault for not deciding what's best for us and forcing us out of our cars, or the fault of all those individuals who value their personal mobility more than their "civic pride"?

Uh here we go, "the government is forcing us out of our cars", same old comical right wing mantra.


This whole thread literally everybody is bitching about the traffic. Now you and etmo claim that government would be FORCING you to get out of that same traffic that everybody hates? WTF sense does that even make?

I already said, offer a viable alternative, not a half assed one, and people will WANT to make the switch. It's not like it didn't happen in other places, we don't have to guess, we know that if we build it (properly) they will come. That's hardly forcing anybody to do anything.

It's at times like this that I miss the :coocoo: emoticon.

And yes, civic pride is a thing, something you don't care for, for all your patriotism.
It's funny that somebody you tell should assimilate actually gives a sh!t about it more than you do.

Now mind you, I don't begrudge you your choices so long as you're willing to live with the ethical and practical compromises in the life you have chosen without whining about them, 'cause this here's America. I just kinda LOL when you do get worked up about people who are doing the same thing that you're doing and for the same reasons you're doing it. You are impatient with people who won't make the choices you want them (but not you) to make.

People don't have a choice, I don't have a choice, dummy. We all have to sit on I-5 every time we decide to go anywhere because there are no alternatives.
That's what you get when civic planning is done by the developers.

Those couple of years that I lived in Portland, my car was parked almost the entire time, including the trips to the airport, happiest days of my life.
Wish I can ride my bike and take the train everywhere, wish I can walk to a grocery store or a restaurant or coffee shop but oh no, that would be the government and foreigners forcing their filthy ways on you. It's time to admit that we don't live in the countryside anymore.

I know that North County is not a city (yet) but why is it that instead of building malls and more suburban sprawl, having a mixed use residential/retail hubs is such a bad, bad idea?

 

[etmo]

You make a whole argument about how people hate sitting in traffic and then you propose that we need to "convince" them to change that? What convincing do people need other than the fact that they are wasting their lives on I-5 every day? :confused2:

You answered your own question without even realizing it -- obviously they need more / better convincing, because you are complaining about the fact that they are not changing their preference for suburban sprawl, even though everyone agrees they hate sitting in traffic.

IOW, the stimulus to change (traffic) is not strong enough to overcome the status quo. So if you want to change the status quo, you'll have to come up with a more compelling argument.

I'm not saying your suggestion of mixed use development is evil or wrong. I'm saying the political will to force it doesn't exist and the market isn't buying into it en masse because it's not sufficiently compelling. Maybe that will change with time?

This whole thread literally everybody is bitching about the traffic. Now you and etmo claim that government would be FORCING you to get out of that same traffic that everybody hates? WTF sense does that even make?

I'm not saying we should take up arms and fight the evil gubbernmint because they're forcing us into self-driving cars. I'm saying it's what will happen, and that among the many reasons why is because it's an easier solution to some problems than changing where / how everyone lives.

One thing I'll add: it's not a permanent solution. However, our society has always favored the quick, stop-gap, relatively painless solution over more difficult but more permanent ones, and in recent generations foresight has not been our strong suit.

If our population continues to grow, eventually even networked cars won't be able to solve the traffic problem, and then we'll have to re-visit the issue. Re-organizing how and where we live will again come up as a solution, and maybe the political climate at that time will be sufficiently changed to allow such a proposal serious consideration.

If you're looking to shortcut the process (and I'm not saying such motivation would be wrong or evil), then design your mixed-use Utopia so brilliantly that no suburban homeowner can resist the allure of it's sweeping advantages.

 

[FecalFace]

I don't disagree that it's an uphill battle.

But since we are not making actuall decisions here on erBB :hat: , I'd like to discuss what would ideal solution be, something to strive for.

Again, if there're viable alternatives that can make people's life better, people will take it every time. If you offer half-assed solutions it will only work half-ass. Like the Coaster and the 78 whatchamacallit train.



We don't need another half-assed solution, though it's a step in the right direction.
Adding freeway lines and new suburban developments and malls miles away from residential areas, is not it.

 

[Autoprax]

Do they even have roads in Serbia????

Some Sebian chicks are so fvcking sexy, with their angular jaws and high sturdy cheek bones.

WHo even cares about roads?

The key to the N County traffic is to have some hot serbian chick sucking you off as yo are stuck on the 5?