Modern-ish twin?

Duffy LaCoronilla

Duke status
Apr 27, 2016
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I'll let you develop your own opinion on that. I think the squash tail thruster is the most user friendly versatile board there is. Definitely easier than a quad.
For you.

I find a well made quad easier to surf and more versitos than a thruster.

But I never rode a thruster until about 10 years after I started surfing. I literally grew up surfing twins and quads so when I get on one it feels like home.

It seems that you just have this knee jerk reaction that asyms suck but offer no actual specifics on their performance that backs your opinion.
 

VonMeister

Tom Curren status
Apr 26, 2013
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JOE BIDENS RAPE FINGER
For you.

I find a well made quad easier to surf and more versitos than a thruster.

But I never rode a thruster until about 10 years after I started surfing. I literally grew up surfing twins and quads so when I get on one it feels like home.

It seems that you just have this knee jerk reaction that asyms suck but offer no actual specifics on their performance that backs your opinion.
I thought I offered specifics.
 

Duffy LaCoronilla

Duke status
Apr 27, 2016
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I thought I offered specifics.
What part of this specifically addresses the performance (or lack thereof) of asyms?

The tail of a surfboard is where all your surfing occurs. When a shaper to comes to the conclusion that the rail shape and length needs to be different to get there board working correctly, they've come to the wrong conclusion. The real truth is they need to give up shaping and start doing something else, preferably without hand tools or thinks there the structure matters.

I get it though. Less than 10% of surfers can do a proper turn frontside so backside is impossible for them. Why not go after that large segment of surfers by telling them it's not you, it's the board. It's worked remarkably well for golf equipment manufacturers.
All I see is a knock on ‘bad’ shapers and ‘bad‘ surfers and marketing.

Can point to something negative inherent in asymmetrical designs that make them surf worse than the inherent characteristics of a ‘normal’ board?
 

VonMeister

Tom Curren status
Apr 26, 2013
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What part of this specifically addresses the performance (or lack thereof) of asyms?



All I see is a knock on ‘bad’ shapers and ‘bad‘ surfers and marketing.

Can point to something negative inherent in asymmetrical designs that make them surf worse than the inherent characteristics of a ‘normal’ board?
I didn't knock bad surfers....just bad shapers.

Like I said, the tail of a board is pretty important. Random and wonky volume, area differences and fin placements on either side isn't going to do anything good. If a person can't surf front side than the board he's riding isn't good for him or he just doesn't have the skillset necessary for the board he's riding. The solution isn't asymmetrical rails because if it was it would have to be tuned for the individual to even work anyway.
 

Duffy LaCoronilla

Duke status
Apr 27, 2016
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I didn't knock bad surfers....just bad shapers.

Like I said, the tail of a board is pretty important. Random and wonky volume, area differences and fin placements on either side isn't going to do anything good. If a person can't surf front side than the board he's riding isn't good for him or he just doesn't have the skillset necessary for the board he's riding. The solution isn't asymmetrical rails because if it was it would have to be tuned for the individual to even work anyway.
Heel turns and toe turns use different body mechanics. That right there justifies at least the exploration of asymmetrical designs.

I don’t really understand why you’re finding fault with something that can help some people surf better.

I have a twin fin fish. I ride it sometimes with two different fins.

And I know it would work way better backside if the tail on the heel side was shortened and the fin moved up or maybe even a quad type configuration on the heel side. It’s pretty much universally accepted that twin fin fish boards are hard to surf backside. Why? Because heel turns and toe turns are different.

With the attitude of ‘asyms are stupid’ one would just have to accept that a twin fish sucks going backside.

Oh well...

Or you can make changes to the heel side and a have fish board that works both ways.

I really don’t see what the problem is with this.
 

teeroi

Miki Dora status
Oct 21, 2007
3,663
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eastside oahu
I had a bunch of asym boards back in the good ole handshape days. None of them were asymmetrical on purpose. Most of them surfed ok. Might’ve had a magic one that was slightly twisted but surf great right or left.
 

VonMeister

Tom Curren status
Apr 26, 2013
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JOE BIDENS RAPE FINGER
Heel turns and toe turns use different body mechanics. That right there justifies at least the exploration of asymmetrical designs.

I don’t really understand why you’re finding fault with something that can help some people surf better.

I have a twin fin fish. I ride it sometimes with two different fins.

And I know it would work way better backside if the tail on the heel side was shortened and the fin moved up or maybe even a quad type configuration on the heel side. It’s pretty much universally accepted that twin fin fish boards are hard to surf backside. Why? Because heel turns and toe turns are different.

With the attitude of ‘asyms are stupid’ one would just have to accept that a twin fish sucks going backside.

Oh well...

Or you can make changes to the heel side and a have fish board that works both ways.

I really don’t see what the problem is with this.
You seem like you have an Ax to grind. I think they're stupid. You can't talk me out of it. I hope you enjoy yours.
 
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Duffy LaCoronilla

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Apr 27, 2016
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You seem like you have an Ax to grind. I think they're stupid. You can't talk me out of it. I hope you enjoy yours.
I don’t have an ax to grind and I don’t have an asym surfboard. You just said they are stupid and I thought maybe you had some legitimate reason or some kind of actual experience that you could share that got you to arrive at this conclusion.

Sorry for assuming that.
 

VonMeister

Tom Curren status
Apr 26, 2013
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I think I was pretty clear but ill dive a bit deeper. I understand the theory....you weight the frontside and backside rails differently because of body mechanics and posture. At face value it makes sense. When you apply some critical thought and experience you know this isn't true. Adjusting posture is the simplest and most automatic thing we do. You do it with every step you take. With surfing, as we gain experience by surfing at some point you don't have to think about it. At a point though you are going to reach the limits of your God given ability and there's not a fix to that. We can't all be Kelly Slater so we just enjoy what we have.

With board design, you want a board as symmetrical as possible. Water flow depends on it. When you start adding turbulence under the tail by creating high and low pressure differentials by differing fin placement, bottom contours, area loss, and tail shape you are reducing performance. For a surfboard to work you need flow and lift in order for it to plane and turn. Is the answer to some subjective performance deficiency on one half of the surfboard to make the better half worse? That's what the asymmetrical design does. It arbitrarily takes performance away from one side to match the subjectively worse side. Even if we assume that symmetrical surfboards have a performance advantage on one side...I'll take every advantage I can get and work harder on the bad side. This is all conjecture though because dynamically asymmetrical surfboards reduce performance on both sides.

You used snowboards as an example. I don't snowboard so I can't comment on snowboard design but can say that while there is some skillset crossover between snowboarding and surfing, there is nothing similar about how you would design the board for each, obviously. The mediums are radically different.

At the end of the days these are toys and you get enjoyment from riding different styles and shapes of surfboards and the experience and challenges each offers I'm sure there are asymmetrical surfboards that are an absolute blast to ride....but the claim that asymmetrical surfboards are a leap forward or a cure for some performance deficiency, WHICH IS THE CLAIM is absurd and stupid.
 

jkb

Phil Edwards status
Feb 22, 2005
7,504
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Central California
With board design, you want a board as symmetrical as possible. Water flow depends on it. When you start adding turbulence under the tail by creating high and low pressure differentials by differing fin placement, bottom contours, area loss, and tail shape you are reducing performance. For a surfboard to work you need flow and lift in order for it to plane and turn. Is the answer to some subjective performance deficiency on one half of the surfboard to make the better half worse? That's what the asymmetrical design does. It arbitrarily takes performance away from one side to match the subjectively worse side. Even if we assume that symmetrical surfboards have a performance advantage on one side...I'll take every advantage I can get and work harder on the bad side. This is all conjecture though because dynamically asymmetrical surfboards reduce performance on both sides.
If you're riding flat, on flat water this would be true.

But we aren't.

We're on one rail or the other most often riding on a curved surface.

Symmetry isn't as important as you make it out to be.

In fact, every board you've ever ridden has been asymmetrical no matter how good your shaper is.
 

VonMeister

Tom Curren status
Apr 26, 2013
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JOE BIDENS RAPE FINGER
If you're riding flat, on flat water this would be true.

But we aren't.

We're on one rail or the other most often riding on a curved surface.

Symmetry isn't as important as you make it out to be.

In fact, every board you've ever ridden has been asymmetrical no matter how good your shaper is.
Because we are riding on a dynamic surface and producing with force additional dynamics this makes it even more true. This is a total and complete exaggeration but I will make it anyway. Hanging a brick off one rail to improve the performance of the other is a net negative.

The lens of symmetry is completely unimportant, but the performance of a surfboard has specific variables that make it work. Removing one variable on purpose and claiming performance gains is silly....but I absolutely appreciate and understand the fun factor and this factor isn't limited to symmetry.

I don't know how minor imperfections make an argument for asymmetrical surfboards.
 
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kool-aid

Michael Peterson status
Aug 28, 2003
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I feel like there are a couple of obvious choices missing from this list.

Album Twinsman / Lightbender
Sharp Eye Modern2
Stretch 2win or Fish

A MOTE tracks twin would be epic but definitely tough to obtain.
 

sdsrfr

Legend (inyourownmind)
Jul 13, 2020
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San Diego
How far are the shaper dot from the tips of the swallow?

been tempted by one of these. Curious what you think after the honeymoon.
 

jkb

Phil Edwards status
Feb 22, 2005
7,504
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Central California
Because we are riding on a dynamic surface and producing with force additional dynamics this makes it even more true. This is a total and complete exaggeration but I will make it anyway. Hanging a brick off one rail to improve the performance of the other is a net negative.

The lens of symmetry is completely unimportant, but the performance of a surfboard has specific variables that make it work. Removing one variable on purpose and claiming performance gains is silly....but I absolutely appreciate and understand the fun factor and this factor isn't limited to symmetry.

I don't know how minor imperfections make an argument for asymmetrical surfboards.
I don't find this to be true though. You aren't dumbing down one side of the board to improve the other. You're utilizing the qualities that give you advantages on each side of the board.
 
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