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JS warehouse Oceanside retaliation
- Thread starter casa_mugrienta
- Start date
Lol. JS thread turned FireWire defenders.
I take comfort in not knowing what will happen if my shaper screwed up so bad I need a replacement as the situation has never come up
I take comfort in not knowing what will happen if my shaper screwed up so bad I need a replacement as the situation has never come up
I was not going to get involved but here goes...
I am a relative newbie (one of the guys that many of you despise at the moment, but I am surfing my own breaks away from people). I am having a blast and loving it, and figuring out what boards allow me to do what. I learned that most boards are good and fun.
Marketing must have influenced my initial decisions toward Firewire. Then it was the comfort in knowing the brand and what these boards are to make follow up purchases. It is both marketing and information. I would like to highlight the information aspect is fundamental to me. I prefer to be able to read about and think about boards in the evening when time permits. FW, CI, Pyzel etc provide lots of information about the board size, volume, and intended use. The shaper's websites are vague and lack information. You don't have to have the prettiest website, but can you at least provide some details of board intent, fins recommendations, etc. When you have to track down other videos and websites to determine board characteristics that just seems like a flawed approach. If you have a website add some words to the board's description. There is almost an underlying ego with some of them.
Then there are a number of videos watching the board under people's feet really helps in making an educated decision.
Now that I have gained knowledge from reading pages on this forum, and my real-world experience in trying different boards, I know what I like, but still experimenting with boards.
Before my first FW, I reached out to a local shaper provided a detailed email with lots of information and goals and got no real informative reply. I even sent a follow-up email. The lack of real reply led me to the first FW purchase. As part of my email, I stated that I wanted to support a local shaper. Part of me feels that I was too green to provide a reply, I will never buy a board from them.
Since then, I have emailed two other shapers and only one has provided useful information and quick replies and that is Matt Parker, and I realize that Album is basically a larger company. However, the guy answers questions and provides useful feedback. And I just bought my second custom from Matt/Album.
That has been my experience
I am a relative newbie (one of the guys that many of you despise at the moment, but I am surfing my own breaks away from people). I am having a blast and loving it, and figuring out what boards allow me to do what. I learned that most boards are good and fun.
Marketing must have influenced my initial decisions toward Firewire. Then it was the comfort in knowing the brand and what these boards are to make follow up purchases. It is both marketing and information. I would like to highlight the information aspect is fundamental to me. I prefer to be able to read about and think about boards in the evening when time permits. FW, CI, Pyzel etc provide lots of information about the board size, volume, and intended use. The shaper's websites are vague and lack information. You don't have to have the prettiest website, but can you at least provide some details of board intent, fins recommendations, etc. When you have to track down other videos and websites to determine board characteristics that just seems like a flawed approach. If you have a website add some words to the board's description. There is almost an underlying ego with some of them.
Then there are a number of videos watching the board under people's feet really helps in making an educated decision.
Now that I have gained knowledge from reading pages on this forum, and my real-world experience in trying different boards, I know what I like, but still experimenting with boards.
Before my first FW, I reached out to a local shaper provided a detailed email with lots of information and goals and got no real informative reply. I even sent a follow-up email. The lack of real reply led me to the first FW purchase. As part of my email, I stated that I wanted to support a local shaper. Part of me feels that I was too green to provide a reply, I will never buy a board from them.
Since then, I have emailed two other shapers and only one has provided useful information and quick replies and that is Matt Parker, and I realize that Album is basically a larger company. However, the guy answers questions and provides useful feedback. And I just bought my second custom from Matt/Album.
That has been my experience
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No doubt. I tried ordering from a particular shaper once and they asked me to snail mail a check for the deposit before talking further.
tried with another and took a week to hear back then lots of missed calls trying to talk.
using the cacanalogy, not all resturants are the same. Some people just dig chili’s.
tried with another and took a week to hear back then lots of missed calls trying to talk.
using the cacanalogy, not all resturants are the same. Some people just dig chili’s.
Not trying to provoke anything, but confused by this response...
I am confused by the restaurant analogy, I like local restaurants, and nearly 100% of the time when I go to the local restaurant, I see the menu, and know what I paying for without any entrance fee. Only once you know the place, do the special meals happen. Even before then, there is a basic menu.
so do you keep trying to pay for someone's business and time when they don't respect yours? or blindly send funds with no clear expectations in what you might get? I tend to value my money a little more than this. Once I have an established relationship - no problem in sending funds just like trusting the cook at the local restaurant. For this to happen an initial attempt by both parties is required.
If I order a McTomo happy meal but get a Danmannglar figurine, I'm asking to speak to the manager.
what people don't realize, especially newbies, adult learners etc, is that it is the relationship with the shaper that will get u long term consistent results and allow ur surfing to improve, tiger sheds, moor wavez, etc.
boars have a lot of nuance that affects the ride. don't believe me, measure fin toe and cant and report back. i had boards that felt off and had 1/4" more toe in one side of fin. firewires have tons of little defects, tomos with no hard edge, fins set at inconsistent angles, etc, etc. not to mention non customizable dims, rail volume, rocker adjustment etc. it's cheaper for them to produce their non-custom garbage with high margins and siphon funds into marketing to sell u a polished turd.
advice to all the newbies and adult learners, find a reputable shaper (there's tons in CA if u live here), 3 iterations of the same board. ride, tell shaper what u like, what u don't, refine, adjust, repeat. by boar #3 u will have a winner, maybe even earlier. u will also have valuable info for the shaper for any other boars u decide to go with.
try that with a fireturd! mark price just wants to take advantage of the kooks while burning down the entire surf industry, fk them
boars have a lot of nuance that affects the ride. don't believe me, measure fin toe and cant and report back. i had boards that felt off and had 1/4" more toe in one side of fin. firewires have tons of little defects, tomos with no hard edge, fins set at inconsistent angles, etc, etc. not to mention non customizable dims, rail volume, rocker adjustment etc. it's cheaper for them to produce their non-custom garbage with high margins and siphon funds into marketing to sell u a polished turd.
advice to all the newbies and adult learners, find a reputable shaper (there's tons in CA if u live here), 3 iterations of the same board. ride, tell shaper what u like, what u don't, refine, adjust, repeat. by boar #3 u will have a winner, maybe even earlier. u will also have valuable info for the shaper for any other boars u decide to go with.
try that with a fireturd! mark price just wants to take advantage of the kooks while burning down the entire surf industry, fk them
Nah. It’s not like a local restaurant.
local restaurants take some learning first. Think of times before yelp (erBB) and you had to do some research first or take a gamble.
or think like when you’re out of town or better another in country. you gonna chance the place down the street or settle with the chain because you know what yer gonna get.
if approach the small places with skepticism, not settle on the first place and ask some locals what they think you can score a pretty cool meal, for less than the chains, and have a real experience.
the Firewire=McDonald’s is actually pretty on point.
I have ordered and tried other board. I had Timmy Patterson pool party. One of Italos personal boards for the surf ranch that was then given to Archie. Archie broke the nose and turned it in. I bought it from Scotty, fixed it, rode it and liked it a lot. But the PU was heavy and the pointy nose bothered me.
I also had a Whitlock (local shaper). PU, fish outline. 5'3 grovel board 19in wide and 2 1/4 rail. Loved the board, but i had other Tomo's that were more narrow that had a wider wave range, so retired it.
Rode a 5'5 Watermark board (local shaper) in PU. Again... i liked the board, but the PU is heavy and i would have to work to get my momentum. It just didnt have the EPS buoyancy that i was used to, and i would have had to dial in the shape and dimensions to get a magic board when i have already dialed in my boards with Tomo.
Tomo is the shaper i like. Firewire and XTR are the tech he uses. So i am basically already on the program you guys are describing. I talked to Tomo before I order a custom from him in Australia and we went over the details of the board (I did that for the last 2 customs i ordered). I also talked to him before i ordered a board from XTR and he created a custom file for me and sent it to XTR for production. I've also sent him videos of my surfing his boards and he's given me advice on what he thinks the board is doing. The stock boards are easier to figure out because i can go into a shop or to Firewire and check them out in person before i buy them.
I think you guys have a distorted view of Firewire because its different than going to your shapers spot, talking design and boards, have a beer or whatever and write up an order for a new custom. Which is totally cool and i like that experience as well. But Firewire cuts out the bullshit. Exactly the same shapes, good tech, designed by good shapers, good resell value. Its just preference.
Most frustrating thing I see on here - is some blanket statement about "PU durability" or weight, in comparison to some alt tech. I liked the Parmenter/Martz podcasts because they tried to explain the various materials, decisions and steps that go into making (or ordering) a good board.
There's a big variety in PU glassing out there - both materials and quality. Comparing some volume shop that makes extra hot, overly-brittle boards to a quality, well-done PU lam shows that you don't really have any experience with boards. And it carries through all steps. Sanding especially. Lucky enough to have some master-glassed boards and the difference is pretty clear.
Even worse, guys tout some questionable/unproven technologies, with noticeable mistakes/sanding errors etc. over a quality PU board. I have NO idea how that became desirable to a lot of surfers.
Guaran-fucking-tee that quality edges, sanding and finish will make a bigger difference in performance than some half-baked "tech" or saving a few ounces of weight. But FW Boyz have made up their minds and don't have time for any of this. Helium bro, it's sooo light!!
In case anybody cares, my best have been from Waterman's Guild, whoever glassed Griffins in Hawaii and Brian King. Check out a shortboard from any of those shops. Light, pretty strong and insane edges you will not find anywhere near a firewire.
There's a big variety in PU glassing out there - both materials and quality. Comparing some volume shop that makes extra hot, overly-brittle boards to a quality, well-done PU lam shows that you don't really have any experience with boards. And it carries through all steps. Sanding especially. Lucky enough to have some master-glassed boards and the difference is pretty clear.
Even worse, guys tout some questionable/unproven technologies, with noticeable mistakes/sanding errors etc. over a quality PU board. I have NO idea how that became desirable to a lot of surfers.
Guaran-fucking-tee that quality edges, sanding and finish will make a bigger difference in performance than some half-baked "tech" or saving a few ounces of weight. But FW Boyz have made up their minds and don't have time for any of this. Helium bro, it's sooo light!!
In case anybody cares, my best have been from Waterman's Guild, whoever glassed Griffins in Hawaii and Brian King. Check out a shortboard from any of those shops. Light, pretty strong and insane edges you will not find anywhere near a firewire.
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I've been down the alt tech rabbit hole, everything from Firewire to Stretch to XTR to FutureFlex and more. PU still feels the best. In my hand it might feel heavier than EPS, but in the water it carries so much more inertia and momentum than EPS. EPS might flick up to a fast speed at first, but it doesn't hold it. PU gets faster and faster, higher top end. Like throwing a baseball (PU) versus throwing a tennis ball (EPS).
I've had about 5 firewires in the past, my friend owns a small shop and lets me buy whatever at cost, and I can say that all the boards have been good. Never had a dud. BUTTTTT, I never had a magic one either. They sat somewhere between a decent board and just below a really good board.. Rode them for a few months then sold them. All my truly magic boards have come from working with a shaper. Most of the time not even meeting in person, but via email or text then mailing checks or sending paypal/venmo for deposit and paying balance when pick up. Takes about 1-3 iterations of a shape before we get supernatural results.
The one really good FW was a stock Tomo Nano. At 5'5 it's volume was so tiny for me at 6'1 190, but it went really well. Always thought about getting a thicker one via XTR. But you couldn't do that with FW.
FW is genius in their website, prod descriptions, copy writing, etc. They've captured people who want to nerd out on boards (all of us) and packaged it in a sleek design, logos, branding etc. I understand why people buy in and get them, but they are expensive and non customizable. Craftsmanship is around average in the board industry, imho.
I've had about 5 firewires in the past, my friend owns a small shop and lets me buy whatever at cost, and I can say that all the boards have been good. Never had a dud. BUTTTTT, I never had a magic one either. They sat somewhere between a decent board and just below a really good board.. Rode them for a few months then sold them. All my truly magic boards have come from working with a shaper. Most of the time not even meeting in person, but via email or text then mailing checks or sending paypal/venmo for deposit and paying balance when pick up. Takes about 1-3 iterations of a shape before we get supernatural results.
The one really good FW was a stock Tomo Nano. At 5'5 it's volume was so tiny for me at 6'1 190, but it went really well. Always thought about getting a thicker one via XTR. But you couldn't do that with FW.
FW is genius in their website, prod descriptions, copy writing, etc. They've captured people who want to nerd out on boards (all of us) and packaged it in a sleek design, logos, branding etc. I understand why people buy in and get them, but they are expensive and non customizable. Craftsmanship is around average in the board industry, imho.
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more like they cut out the most important part. the surfer shaper relationship. u think any wsl pro would have consistent results by riding otr fireturd popouts?
again, u are under the cult of mark price and being brainwashed. hence calling the most important part of board acquisition bs.
like i said before, u need to really be in the shaping bay with someone good and plan on 3 iterations of the board after talking detail with the shaper. this is what the pros do.
I will acquiesce.
The process is not bullshit. Sometimes its just nice grabbing an OTR with the dims exactly how the shaper wants it and just riding it and seeing how it goes.
This the same thing that put all other American mfg out-of-business so that we no longer know how to make important stuff like semiconductors.
Same with every industry in the USA. @j_mac makes good points though. Nothing is stopping these other shapers from putting more information out there and answering emails. Mayhem, for example, has a pretty good volume calculator, but I couldn't walk into a shop and order a custom. I had to order through Catalyst who answered some extra questions. I suppose if firewire's margins are that much higher, they can pay people to answer all those questions for them and do extra marketing, like @racer1 said.
I doubt firewire invented everything. AFAIK Burt Rutan invented vacuum bag epoxy sandwich construction for his kit-built airplanes (Long EZ, Vari-EZ, Starship) in the 1970s. It's a proven technology but is probably not great for sharp edges hence the mfg quality variability.
I think Epoxy is more durable than PU for a given weight and glass schedule.
Making it big pimpin' if you're an intermediate fatass in waist-stomach high slop where stop-start surfing is dictated by the conditions. Then throw in the durability (except for heat resistance).
But even poly Baby Buggy vs poly Sub Driver, basically same dims within .2L. BB's ability to accelerate quickly is a game-changer. Make it Cabron Warp and it's even better at its one job.
For me PU/PE is a connected, engaged feeling, and the better the surf the better it feels. The board feels moulded to your feet.
EPS/Epoxy feels skippy and reactive and the better the surf, or with chop or bump, the worse it feels. The board doesn't feel that deep engagement with the wave energy I feel with a well made PU/PE.
Seen so many iterations of EPS tech come through now, but it seems like the majority of surfers who have a skill set end up going back to PU/PE.
EPS/Epoxy feels skippy and reactive and the better the surf, or with chop or bump, the worse it feels. The board doesn't feel that deep engagement with the wave energy I feel with a well made PU/PE.
Seen so many iterations of EPS tech come through now, but it seems like the majority of surfers who have a skill set end up going back to PU/PE.
eps/epoxy feels great in small crap. prefer poly in bigger stuff and on hipster sleds
Great for the passionate hobbyist surfer but for the casual beach goer who just wants to have fun in the water and maybe gets some exercise at the same time that is a big ask.