is the term "haole" an inside joke for Hawaiians? move the "a" then you have "a-hole"

[jamesgang]

Deal is deal.

And “pure profit”? Who pays for the maintenance, staffing, etc.?

And what else are you going to use the land for? It’s cheap because it has no other $$$ value.

This may sound crazy, but some things have value outside of money. Surf spots, for instance. For many people, that land is incredibly valuable.

Even if it had no cultural value, I think this is one of those times where the Native Hawaiian community is just saying "enough" to the state. Better to let the land sit than continue with things as they were.

 

[ElOgro]

Look for the deal behind the deal. Somebody got sumptin.

 

[Duffy LaCoronilla]

So you’d rather see Yellowstone developed? Arches? Yosemite?

Land can have significant value without being developed.

Yellowstone is developed as is Yosemite. Ever been there?

I have. Thats why I generally avoid national parks. Too many people, too many cars, too much stuff.

Haven’t been to arches.

And if someone wanted to build something for scientific purposes in Yosemite, something that benefits all of us, I wouldn’t be opposed.

 

[Duffy LaCoronilla]

This may sound crazy, but some things have value outside of money. Surf spots, for instance. For many people, that land is incredibly valuable.

theres no surf up where those scopes are. The claim that I’ve heard that the land has value (non-monetary) is that it’s “sacred”, which is just religious mysticism and should not be used against the advancement of science. And if “native Hawaiians “ wanted a piece of the action nothing stopped them from investing in the project.

Even if it had no cultural value, I think this is one of those times where the Native Hawaiian community is just saying "enough" to the state. Better to let the land sit than continue with things as they were.

again, I don’t understand this type of thinking. The land has great value as a place for telescopes. Why not use it for that?

That’s the best use for that land that benefits the greatest number of people.

 

[jamesgang]

theres no surf up where those scopes are.

Uh yeah, we're done here.

 

[teeroi]

If you lived in Hawaii for a long time or better yet born and raised here but aren’t Hawaiian blood you’ll learn there are certain subjects, issues that are radioactive. This is one of them.

Lots of Hawaiians are pro TMT or don’t care one way or the other. But me as a non Hawaiian local whose family has been here for 6 generations it’s best to say nothing
and let the dust settle. If I choose sides no matter how it turns out some Hawaiian friends or family will look at me different.

 

[manbearpig]

Yellowstone is developed as is Yosemite. Ever been there?

I have. Thats why I generally avoid national parks. Too many people, too many cars, too much stuff.

Haven’t been to arches.

And if someone wanted to build something for scientific purposes in Yosemite, something that benefits all of us, I wouldn’t be opposed.

As usual you danced around the points being made.

Let’s get more vague then. Undeveloped public land has significant monetary value. Surf spots have significant monetary value. The idea that land is unproductive without development is a farce. In many facets the places have a more diversified and an arguably higher monetary value than a proposed telescope.

I do agree that some of the development in the more known national parks is off putting in the more visited areas. I’ve been to them. But those same parks I mentioned have vast stretches of undeveloped land which is what gives the land its value both monetarily and otherwise.

Places like Yosemite and the like already do have significant scientific value.

I am 100% not a believer in religion, and in many ways come from the same view as you do. But I do respect places that have cultural significance and their value to the people it is significant too. Your stance is just as ignorant as any religious fanatic. You’re looking at it in the same black and white fashion. “Deal is deal” isn’t even a response.

 

[Beerbelly]

During my limited time at Kekaha summer school the Portagees were the low on the totem pole. My brothers and sister never got hassles. Our parents also fed half our neighbors and let em use any boards whenever.

 

[Duffy LaCoronilla]

As usual you danced around the points being made.

Let’s get more vague then. Undeveloped public land has significant monetary value. Surf spots have significant monetary value. The idea that land is unproductive without development is a farce. In many facets the places have a more diversified and an arguably higher monetary value than a proposed telescope.

I do agree that some of the development in the more known national parks is off putting in the more visited areas. I’ve been to them. But those same parks I mentioned have vast stretches of undeveloped land which is what gives the land its value both monetarily and otherwise.

Places like Yosemite and the like already do have significant scientific value.

I am 100% not a believer in religion, and in many ways come from the same view as you do. But I do respect places that have cultural significance and their value to the people it is significant too. Your stance is just as ignorant as any religious fanatic. You’re looking at it in the same black and white fashion. “Deal is deal” isn’t even a response.

I just don’t see how a telescope makes that land any less “culturally significant”.

 

[manbearpig]

I just don’t see how a telescope makes that land any less “culturally significant”.

Of course you don’t

 

[racer1]

I just don’t understand this way of thinking.

I don't expect you to. The telescope is just the latest instance of centuries of colonialism. An outside entity comes in, uses Hawaii's natural resources for profits while Native Hawaiians get shafted. Sugar, hotels, military, missile testing, golf courses, etc.

I'm not anti telescope and as an aetheist I don't believe in the cultural significance of the Mauna, but I am pro money. We should have started bargaining at $100M a year. They have a spot in the Canary Islands that is begging them to build there but they won't. Mauna Kea is the most valuable - non stop flights from SFO/LAX, everybody speaks English, half way to Asia and all the comforts and freedoms of the USA.

 

[Duffy LaCoronilla]

I don't expect you to. The telescope is just the latest instance of centuries of colonialism. An outside entity comes in, uses Hawaii's natural resources for profits while Native Hawaiians get shafted. Sugar, hotels, military, missile testing, golf courses, etc.

I'm not anti telescope, I'm pro money. We should have started bargaining at $100M a year. They have a spot in the Canary Islands that is begging them to build there but they won't. Mauna Kea is the most valuable - non stop flights from SFO/LAX, everybody speaks English, half way to Asia and all the comforts and freedoms of the USA.

Progress isn’t great for everyone.

And the attributes you list here are exactly why this is the perfect spot for this telescope.

I get the Hawaii has been exploited. It’s been exploited for its resources since humans set foot on it. Some have exploited more successfully than others. But sugar, hotels, pineapples, missiles and golf have nothing to do with celestial research. This is wrong hill to be dying on.

It’s a state in the USA. That isn’t going to change. That outrigger has sailed.

Native Hawaiians are American citizens just like me.

It’s sad that some subjects/opinions are “off limits” there.

 

[HarryLopez]

Just Round Eye.....what about menpachi?

Shet, rice eye, slant, jap slap, pake, flippy, yobos, kimchees, portageese (not portagee)... It goes on.

White privilege is real! Grew up with white privilege meaning extra slaps, bus fair stolen, good chance of false cracks at most parties, delegated to the inside, called names, middle or front of the bus (back of the bus was not available, unless you like beef!), and eventually job discrimination, etc... I'm not sure when I realized this AND that being white was a lottery ticket on the global scale. White people claimed 'civilized' while taking over, illegally most of the time. It wasn't me, but I understand the sentiment. The Hawaiians have been fckn shafted, and they deserve more out of this deal. Even their own OHA people are taking more and giving less. Maybe it's a human condition and not a racial one? Fck if I know, but if you can't empathize with a race that's been fckd in the past, then I guess...

 

[racer1]

Oh 100% agree the outrigger has sailed and this isn't the mountain to die on, but wanted to explain why some people are so passionate about this and the media incorrectly blanket labels them as anti-science or culturally archaic. From the outside it's so easy to be like yeah I'm pro science and I identify with progress, but this isn't really all about celestial science vs ancient religion / anti-science. TMT is pushing that agenda and media eats it up - it does tell a better story. A lot of people are pissed about mismanagement of Mauna Kea over the past 50 years.

 

[Duffy LaCoronilla]

Oh 100% agree the outrigger has sailed and this isn't the mountain to die on, but wanted to explain why some people are so passionate about this and the media incorrectly blanket labels them as anti-science or culturally archaic. From the outside it's so easy to be like yeah I'm pro science and I identify with progress, but this isn't really all about celestial science vs ancient religion / anti-science. TMT is pushing that agenda. A lot of people are pissed about mismanagement of Mauna Kea over the past 50 years.

‘The media I have seen on this is very sympathetic to the anti-telescope crowd. I got the religious angle from the protesters own words.

 

[racer1]

A lot of protestors also talk about the mismanagement, but that probably gets clipped for the buzzworthy cultural aspect.

I mean media doesn't want to show a boring interview of somebody talking about mismanagement by University of Hawaii.

 

[oneula]

Suffered through allot of racism in school as a military youngster living in Germany and then Texas between the late 50's and mid 60's. Returned home to finally blend in among an ex- plantation community mixed with military families. Then only to experience worse racism after being forced to attend the only aboriginal based school on the island as a boarder. And that was on top of all the upper classmen jock military protocol crap we had to deal with as underclassmen. My hair wasn't kinky and my eyes were slanted but I had more Hawaiian blood/school history than most everyone whom picked on me for looking "asian" and not hawaiian.

Every race has multiple derogatory terms about them in Hawaii including natives.

Ha'ole is an endearing term usually said as a term of friendship like the N word is used in other situations. Ha''ole and Ha'ole with a suffix are signs of respect like haole-boy. It's when certain verbs are placed in front of that noun and all the other racial nouns that negative connotations come into play. So take pride when a brudda or uncle calls you "ha'ole", own it and you get respect.
Nothing to be ashamed or mad about, its just a description like pake. So when you get called "ha'ole" just respond "Das Right" and throw one shaka and you will be in like flint.

You, you attitude and your actions determine how you are viewed by those that don't know you in most of the world. If you have and give aloha then you get aloha. If you only take, then you get what you deserve. Its a simple rule that's not well understood in some cultures

As far as TMT, if you complain about your crowded surf lineups like you all do, then why would you be okay with another visual blight on what used to be a pristine skyline. Kind of like saying you love the crowded skyline of waikiki. Yeah lets put another 50 mega hotes and get rid of Ala Moana Park for another Hilton Lagoon site. Lets put another 5 Koolina type destination resorts from Mokuleia to Velzyland like the Kona coast or Walea area of Maui so we can maximize use of our income generating properties.

It's all the same thing.

Science?
Nah its about the money and fame

unks out

 

[surfysurfy1476]

During my limited time at Kekaha summer school the Portagees were the low on the totem pole. My brothers and sister never got hassles. Our parents also fed half our neighbors and let em use any boards whenever.

How are portagees any different than any other whites on the islands? Or are they portuguese with colonial ancestry?

 

[racer1]

Science?
Nah its about the money and fame

unks out

Yup. So much money. 90 foot telescope coming soon! I hope 90 foot is enough or they'll come back in 20 years to build a 120 footer.

 

[Duffy LaCoronilla]

A lot of protestors also talk about the mismanagement, but that probably gets clipped for the buzzworthy cultural aspect.

I mean media doesn't want to show a boring interview of somebody talking about mismanagement by University of Hawaii.

Admittedly, my knowledge and interest in this isn’t that deep.

I have no dog in this fight. Sorry for being argumentative.