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Harpers Magazine publishes alt right hate speech treatise, falls on wrong side of history

T

the janitor

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Sharkbiscuit said:
Okay so the Tech Dirt article to me has one glaring flaw: It kind of downplays the public school angle. That IS the public sector.

The rest of it, Tech Dirt I think is spot-on. Private sector outfits sh!t-canning people because their speech sucks (eg Cotton's Op-Ed) or they suck at their job (NYT Op-Ed page editor) IS censuring, not censoring. These Harpers signatories are elites with literally no financial problems that aren't entirely of their own making.

They don't want there to be popular outrage/consequences for their own shitty speech. Of course if someone who doesn't hold DC-area cocktail parties to the right of THEM says something they disagree with; to Gab/Parler they go. Unless they have a good WHCD after party; then it's important their speech is consequence-free.
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I'm viewing it more as a bunch of people with some modicum of success or at least notoriety standing up for bedrock principles that people without a platform are in danger of losing.

Your NYT example is an excellent case in point. You'd think that given their legacy they'd be all for publishing a wide array of voices in the Op-Ed section. Agree that Cotton's op-ed piece was definitely from the right. But the wailing and lamentation that ensued was hilarious. If it had stopped there, ok fine, that is counterspeech so have at it. But firing the editor than ran the piece? How does that not have a chilling effect and send a message that if you don't stay within certain political boundaries you are going to get whacked?

Then the new NYT op ed head honcho tells the staff "“Anyone who sees any piece of Opinion journalism, headlines, social posts, photos—you name it—that gives you the slightest pause, please call or text me immediately.”

then a week later they run this:

www.nytimes.com

Opinion | Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police (Published 2020)

Because reform won’t happen.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

when this kind of bs is happening at the NYT then we've got serious issues
 
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S

Sharkbiscuit

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Cotton's piece was bush league garbage that would be sub-median on 4chan /pol/
Everyone already knew what his right wing asshole opinion was, and that it's based on nothing. When that Republican Representative from Georgia called evolution a lie from the pit of hell, do you think if he presented that to NYT in Op Ed form they should run with it because they don't want to stifle free speech?

Or do you think they should shitcan it and tell him he's a lying idiot who is factually wrong and they're not running this because it's based on garbage?

I see it as the NYT showing they learned some lessons about printing garbage from their SNAFUs in the Iraq leadup.

In contrast, I thought there was value in the Op Ed about literally abolishing the police because as GDaddy correctly pointed out, a huge swath of people think it means something else, like move funding to education. I'm pretty sure that's still a huge problem with people sugar-coating it.

YMMV.
 
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kidfury

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The editor who published Cotto's piec said he hadn't read it before it was published. I think that's why he was canned
 
B

Billy Ocean

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these twerps just want to negotiate a separate peace for themselves

they have no interest in the principle of free speech and are happy to see mobs destroy their ideological enemies
 
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S

Sharkbiscuit

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kidfury said:
If an idea is accurate and supported by evidence, fine.
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In this case I think there's an apples/oranges issue at least from my POV.

The standard for evidence I think is higher when your OpEd is "Send in the Troops" in response to a protest in a park.

When you are a grassroots person simply explaining a meaning of a slogan, I think the burden of proof or the standard to which it is held is much, much lower by definition.

Maybe Don Jr. can write something brain dead about Make America Great Again or Keep America Great and NYT will publish it with nobody fired. Maybe not!
 
S

Sharkbiscuit

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kidfury said:
There is another issue that isn't being addressed, and that is common decency.
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This one is harder to codify and I'm sympathetic to someone like the janitor who might point out that a litany of evidence points to (public) universities being the ideal forum for exploring the intellectual extremes of this, as well as the Op Ed pages of NYT, WaPo, etc. as it seems an easy argument to advance that a page of newsprint can easily be folded over, thrown away, ignored, etc.

Campus preachers used to scream all sorts of sh!t at UF students, pretty soon some sorority girls got called names and all of a sudden the Religious Right got a supremely swift kick in the ass for offending the daughters of the Blue Key/Florida GOP Corporate Right.
 
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Ifallalot

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Sharkbiscuit said:
I'm not sure if this is nit picking or a fundamental tangible point of disagreement, but I don't think the reprehensible speech requires defending, rather, the right to say reprehensible things needs to be defended from the Government.
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Yeah, that wording is better than mine.

Thanks for the correction
 
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Billy Ocean

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kidfury said:
which twerps? Do you have evidence for your assertion?
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multiple signatories on that letter have histories of doxing people they don't like and calling for people to be fired and other actions because others expressed opinions they disliked

If you're really interested you could look into it

By the way, it should be obvious but I will say it anyway: I'm not defending the ideas that these people had problems with, I just find it somewhat hilarious that they now are arguing that the vitriol has gone too far when many of the people on this list were all about it when it didn't threaten them personally
 
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kidfury

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If all manner of speech is encouraged then those with little say and little agency will be mocked and preyed upon by the unscrupulous. I fail to see the value of Terry Schiavo sex jokes.
 
Ifallalot

Ifallalot

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kidfury said:
If all manner of speech is encouraged then those with little say and little agency will be mocked and preyed upon by the unscrupulous. I fail to see the value of Terry Schiavo sex jokes.
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This is a perfect example of why all manner of speech needs to be encouraged. You may not see the value of Terri Schiavo sex jokes, but those with a sense of humor do.

The chilling of freedom of speech and expression creates a chilling effect on creativity in all art forms
 
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kidfury

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Billy Ocean said:
multiple signatories on that letter have histories of doxing people they don't like and calling for people to be fired and other actions because others expressed opinions they disliked

If you're really interested you could look into it

By the way, it should be obvious but I will say it anyway: I'm not defending the ideas that these people had problems with, I just find it somewhat hilarious that they now are arguing that the vitriol has gone too far when many of the people on this list were all about it when it didn't threaten them personally
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I'd say that there are very complex issues to be addressed. Demeaning those with little power is not going to help.
 
B

Billy Ocean

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kidfury said:
If all manner of speech is encouraged then those with little say and little agency will be mocked and preyed upon by the unscrupulous. I fail to see the value of Terry Schiavo sex jokes.
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speech is not a crime

but if you look at how far the mob action is going, it is pretty crazy

people are sometimes being denied basic services that you need to function in society, like banking and internet services

You may not feel bad for these particular people, but once these practices become accepted, all that has to happen is a change of ideological views of those who hold the cancel power for it to become a very big problem for a completely different set of people
 
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