Foil Froth Fever

ghostshaper

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Jan 22, 2005
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Hey Ghostshaper, did you get this out?
Took it out today. Could tell something was weird paddling into white wash: no lift from the front canard (it's mounted on completely flat). My board felt like it wanted to pearl before I even got the chance to stand up. Got up once on foil and fell (SMH).

Next step is to shim the front canard so it has a greater AOA.

Juan, you're right: this would be way easier to figure out behind a boat. I need to work on my whaler and take it out. I had to bike in nearly 4 miles just to get spanked. Tired but not giving up yet. Makes me want to buy the zeeko even more actually.
 
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Hdip

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Apr 23, 2005
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So at this point you're just foiling on the main wing with the stabilizer working against you :)

Keep at it.

Did anyone else think that SUP at Malibu missed his chance. If he'd been on a foil, he would've said I'm catching one in. Then kick out, pump through the pier and BOOM! scot free. They wouldn't have been able to catch up to him. :)
 

juandesooka

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Jan 12, 2009
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Took it out today. Could tell something was weird paddling into white wash: no lift from the front canard (it's mounted on completely flat). My board felt like it wanted to pearl before I even got the chance to stand up. Got up once on foil and fell (SMH).

Next step is to shim the front canard so it has a greater AOA.

Juan, you're right: this would be way easier to figure out behind a boat. I need to work on my whaler and take it out. I had to bike in nearly 4 miles just to get spanked. Tired but not giving up yet. Makes me want to buy the zeeko even more actually.
Good on ya for chasing down the dream. Makes me think I'll dig out my canard kite foil experiment and get back on it this spring. Mine is ahead of yours sounds like, as i was able to get up and make it work (but also was quite close to the actual zeeko spitfire, so not as experimental). It just never felt quite right, clearly out of tune/balance, and I didn't have the time or energy to nail it down. Decided to just to focus on having fun kite foiling my stringy instead. Now that I've got those beans out, maybe can get back to it.

Boat for sure...way more opportunity to fine tune, see change, do it again, etc. There's half dozen variables that all inter-relate. In a few sessions I bet you can dial it. It will be cool to find out if it goes the way you hope. The kite canard was really quite noticable how much difference back foot focus feels...more surfy and that's the whole point!
 
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Clamsmasher

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Apr 22, 2013
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I heard ages back that the mast position is very different with a canard setup.....more forward I think.
 

ghostshaper

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I heard ages back that the mast position is very different with a canard setup.....more forward I think.
Had the main wing right under the mast, in front of my back foot.

Moot, now bc I found a used spitfire w 2 sets of wings for $450. Good jumping off point.
 

juandesooka

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Wow, that's for XXLW? Good deal! But if it's the smaller one, may be challenging for surfing. For kiting, the word was the original spitfire was too small for wave riding, it really only worked at higher speeds.

Anyways, will be good to have a setup you know works, to help lessen the unknowns in the variables. This whole sup/surf foil was supposed to be a diy experiment for me, on the cheap. But the learning curve was so steep at first, I couldn't stand the uncertainty of wondering if it the problems were me or the gear. And so I bought in and now ... well, the rest is history. :)
 
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juandesooka

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Honest critique (hope it doesn’t sound dick-ish): the rider in that video looks like he may be having elevation challenges? His stance is a bit wide … is this just his riding style or is this wider weight balancing to compensate for the board’s tendency to drop off foil? Board looks a little long, that may be a hindrance.

The design question it raises is how well balanced the foil is? As I said earlier, my kitefoil DIY canard was very unbalanced, it took so much rear leg pressure to keep it down that my right quad would get cramps. Though the payoff for this is it would also pivot on the rear wing for fast surfboard-like turns.
 
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ghostshaper

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Honest critique (hope it doesn’t sound dick-ish): the rider in that video looks like he may be having elevation challenges? His stance is a bit wide … is this just his riding style or is this wider weight balancing to compensate for the board’s tendency to drop off foil? Board looks a little long, that may be a hindrance.

The design question it raises is how well balanced the foil is? As I said earlier, my kitefoil DIY canard was very unbalanced, it took so much rear leg pressure to keep it down that my right quad would get cramps. Though the payoff for this is it would also pivot on the rear wing for fast surfboard-like turns.
Honest assessment. I saw the same thing. I'm a kook, so I figured, it's working for him, could work for me.

I think I can play with the size of the canard or fore/aft placement of the wings (or the mast plate on the board).
Obviously, the rear foot pressure is the main reason for me to try this design, to emulate surfing. It's funny how we're thinking about having the opposite pressure problem than a normal setup (big front wing) has. I'm still fairly new to this (20-something sessions), but I blow a bunch of waves b/c I still want to stomp on my rear foot as soon as I get up, thinking I'm going to crank a bottom turn. Old habits die hard.
 

Clamsmasher

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Apr 22, 2013
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A couple of things about the video...

He's not highly skilled...this vid is pretty old now, and I'm guessing it was hard to emulate what he probably hadn't seen, especially considering he was probably one of the only foilers in the.entire region.

He's on a Longboard. There's a reason most of us ride a 4'something board

The mast isn't very long.

Looks to me despite all those factors that thing doesn't flare out of the water like a standard setup, and there is a bit of size involved too.
 

juandesooka

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I will look forward to hear ghostshaper's first hand reports, using the tested product. I found the difficult part of tinkering, especially in learning mode, is when I experienced problems I couldn't tell if it was the gear or my skill that was the issue. My initial SUP foil was a takuma v100 knock-off, which didn't work all the great. With online videos being my only guide, I found the lack of examples of talented riders ripping on it made me doubt if it actually did what I wanted it to ... other brands I could see pros doing amazing stuff, so I could be confident the gear wasn't the issue. I am generally pretty cynical about advertising/promotion, but this is one example where it matters ... having solid talent on the product and the ability to make quality videos, builds confidence for those considering dropping some $$.

Anyways...I am curious to do some online searching to see if there are newer/better videos people surfing this zeeko XXLW or other canard set ups. If not, why not, just never got embraced by the mainstream? Or something about how it performs? (this is what I have been wondering about for years now with canards)

A related topic: I bought into the tomo vanguard concept for surfing, the science of it seems to make sense. But it's interesting to note that no high performance surfers adopted them, never saw one used in a contest. Same question ... does it not work as advertised? Or just too far outside the norm to catch on?
 
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ghostshaper

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Agree. I'll be honest in explaining how it goes. Either I continue to suck or the setup is easier to ride b/c it's more rear footed.

Someone posted a review of the spitfire, I think it was a kiter, raving about how canards are going to be the future.
https://awaken-spirit.org/2017/07/13/pretty-soon-everyone-will-be-doing-it-zeeko-spitfire-hydrofoil-review/
but no evidence.

Here's a video from about a year ago from Zeeko's youtube account of a guy on a 4'8:
again, not convincing, but shows promise.
 
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juandesooka

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I will be really interested to hear how it goes. And just want to be clear, I am not Debbie Downer on it, I am a big fan of the idea ... I got caught up in the initial froth hype when zeeko first released spitfire back in 2015ish. The kitefoil world was all freaking out ... then it kinda just faded out. There's a small group who still love them and are dedicated to them, but they are small to invisible in the community. I've never understood why. My gut instinct is that the concept does work as advertised, though maybe not quite fine tuned enough yet, but that the mainstream market had already gone in another direction and the inertia couldn't be stopped or change direction. For my own experimentation, in a busy life with never enough time on the water, I gave up on it in favour of just learning on the gear I know works, maximizing fun and leaving experiments to those with more leisure time.
 
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sozzle

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Delivery today:

Now I need to find a new spot to test b/c the state closed San O last night.

i'm super excited to see how this goes, chatted with clam about this setup last year quite a bit and how it looked very surfy in the way it was flying, hope you can test it without getting arrested or getting socially shamed into oblivion.
 
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