First they came for the undocumented.

Mike_Jones

Miki Dora status
Mar 5, 2009
5,202
6
38
.
First you'll have to overcome O'Connor v. Donaldson.


O'Connor v. Donaldson, 422 U.S. 563 (1975), was a landmark decision in mental health law. The United States Supreme Court ruled that a state cannot constitutionally confine a non-dangerous individual who is capable of surviving safely in freedom by themselves or with the help of willing and responsible family members or friends. Since the trial court jury found, upon ample evidence, that petitioner did so confine respondent, the Supreme Court upheld the trial court's conclusion that petitioner had violated respondent's right to liberty.

Kenneth Donaldson (confined patient) had been held for 15 years in Florida State Hospital at Chattahoochee, due to needs of "care, maintenance, and treatment." He filed a lawsuit against the hospital and staff members claiming they had robbed him of his constitutional rights, by confining him against his will. Donaldson won his case (including monetary damages) in United States District Court, which was affirmed by the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit.[4] In 1975, the United States Supreme Court agreed that Donaldson had been improperly confined but vacated the award of damages. On remand, the Fifth Circuit ordered that a new trial on damages be held.[5]

A finding of "mental illness" alone cannot justify a State's locking a person up against his will and keeping him indefinitely in simple custodial confinement. Assuming that that term can be given a reasonably precise content and that the "mentally ill" can be identified with reasonable accuracy, there is still no constitutional basis for confining such persons involuntarily if they are dangerous to no one and can live safely in freedom.....
.
 

$kully

Duke status
Feb 27, 2009
40,187
21
38
I would love to know what your solution entails.

At the moment were @ full employment so "MOAR JOBS" isn't a solution.
Squidley is the one who seems to think employers are begging for new employees not me. I don't think it's a job issue so much as a multi-faceted problem with no magic bullet solution.

A start would be...

-De-criminalizing drug offenses and treating addiction like a medical problem not a criminal problem.

-Make felons employable. One felony drug charge and you're pretty much forever out of the work force.

-Better, more available psychiatric care.

The problem we're dealing with is a direct result of living in a society with an exclusionary healthcare system, the criminalization of drugs and the unemployability of felons. That combo creates a completely hopeless segment of society where one problem feeds the other.
 

casa_mugrienta

Duke status
Apr 13, 2008
21,551
67
48
Petak Island
www.instagram.com
Squidley is the one who seems to think employers are begging for new employees not me. I don't think it's a job issue so much as a multi-faceted problem with no magic bullet solution.

A start would be...

-De-criminalizing drug offenses and treating addiction like a medical problem not a criminal problem.

-Make felons employable. One felony drug charge and you're pretty much forever out of the work force.

-Better, more available psychiatric care.

The problem we're dealing with is a direct result of living in a society with an exclusionary healthcare system, the criminalization of drugs and the unemployability of felons. That combo creates a completely hopeless segment of society where one problem feeds the other.

"The problem we're dealing with is a direct result of living in a society with an exclusionary healthcare system, the criminalization of drugs and the unemployability of felons."

No, it isn't.

This is the same old tripe from the "homeless people are good folk down on their luck" people who want to avoid the white elephants in the room and have probably never dealt with addicts or worked in a mental health center.

- While I believe in legalizing all drugs that's not going to do anything to help the homeless problem.
- Making felons employable I agree with... but once again it's not really going to do much of anything to help the homeless problem.
- Better, more available psychiatric care? While I agree - once again - it's not just an issue of having mental health treatment available. Spend a few straight weeks volunteering in a mental health facility and attending support groups to get a better perspective of mental health treatment and compliance with mental health treatment.

You're dealing with a population that has one interest - getting drunk and high - and/or are mindfucked with mental illness to the point they can't/won't seek help. And even then there's the issue with facing the fact they will always be mentally ill and need to do what it takes to stay sane. Drugs, booze, insanity. Those are the issues for overwhelming majority of them. And you gotta want to stay sober (and I mean actually want to stay sober) and want to stay sane.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ifallalot

$kully

Duke status
Feb 27, 2009
40,187
21
38
"The problem we're dealing with is a direct result of living in a society with an exclusionary healthcare system, the criminalization of drugs and the unemployability of felons."

No, it isn't.

This is the same old tripe from the "homeless people are good folk down on their luck" people who want to avoid the white elephants in the room and have probably never dealt with addicts or worked in a mental health center.

- While I believe in legalizing all drugs that's not going to do anything to help the homeless problem.
- Making felons employable I agree with... but once again it's not really going to do much of anything to help the homeless problem.
- Better, more available psychiatric care? While I agree - once again - it's not just an issue of having mental health treatment available. Spend a few straight weeks volunteering in a mental health facility and attending support groups to get a better perspective of mental health treatment and compliance with mental health treatment.

You're dealing with a population that has one interest - getting drunk and high - and/or are mindfucked with mental illness to the point they can't/won't seek help. And even then there's the issue with facing the fact they will always be mentally ill and need to do what it takes to stay sane. Drugs, booze, insanity. Those are the issues for overwhelming majority of them. And you gotta want to stay sober (and I mean actually want to stay sober) and want to stay sane.

So Kill Em All?

You don't seem to get that substance abuse tends to bring out underlying psychiatric problems. Yes, one can exist without the other. But more often than not one begets the other and it becomes a problem.

As I said in my last post, "a start would be...", I never claimed any of this would singlehandedly cure homelessness. We have a society that by design buries people with problems. We criminalize substance abuse and make criminals unemployable. When an addict tries to dig themselves out of a ditch and find work only to be passed on by employers because they have a record they're left to hustle to get by which leads to a life of crime, hopelessness and typically more substance abuse. As the problems compound they end up on the street. This problem isn't Trumps doing, it's not Obama's doing or any one president's to own. The burden is collectively owned by our society and has been generations in the making and there is no fast solution to fixing it. In the end I think it's good that the federal government is actually addressing it, I just fear how they plan to do it. They've shown a complete and total lack of empathy and humanity when it comes to their handling of undocumented detainees and I wouldn't expect them to treat the homeless any better. But I'm sure plenty of contractors will rake in our tax dollars as these people are swept under the rug and disappeared.
 

casa_mugrienta

Duke status
Apr 13, 2008
21,551
67
48
Petak Island
www.instagram.com
So Kill Em All?
Uhhh what?

You don't seem to get that substance abuse tends to bring out underlying psychiatric problems. Yes, one can exist without the other. But more often than not one begets the other and it becomes a problem.
Time and again, it's obvious either you don't read people's posts before you reply or you have serious comprehension issues.

We've had this conversation before - the mental illness and substance abuse go hand in hand it works both ways.

As I said in my last post, "a start would be...", I never claimed any of this would singlehandedly cure homelessness. We have a society that by design buries people with problems. We criminalize substance abuse and make criminals unemployable. When an addict tries to dig themselves out of a ditch and find work only to be passed on by employers because they have a record they're left to hustle to get by which leads to a life of crime, hopelessness and typically more substance abuse. As the problems compound they end up on the street.
False.

They don't end up on the streets.

They mostly end up back in prison.

Last data I saw a tiny percentage of the formerly incarcerated are homeless.


This problem isn't Trumps doing, it's not Obama's doing or any one president's to own. The burden is collectively owned by our society and has been generations in the making and there is no fast solution to fixing it. In the end I think it's good that the federal government is actually addressing it, I just fear how they plan to do it. They've shown a complete and total lack of empathy and humanity when it comes to their handling of undocumented detainees and I wouldn't expect them to treat the homeless any better.
With ignorant gems like the line in bold (not to mention your continued reliance on false "facts") it just goes to show people like yourself will ensure the problem never gets solved.
 

$kully

Duke status
Feb 27, 2009
40,187
21
38
Uhhh what?



Time and again, it's obvious either you don't read people's posts before you reply or you have serious comprehension issues.

We've had this conversation before - the mental illness and substance abuse go hand in hand it works both ways.



False.

They don't end up on the streets.

They mostly end up back in prison.

Last data I saw a tiny percentage of the formerly incarcerated are homeless.




With ignorant gems like the line in bold (not to mention your continued reliance on false "facts") it just goes to show people like yourself will ensure the problem never gets solved.

“People who have been to prison just once experience homelessness at a rate nearly 7 times higher than the general public. But people who have been incarcerated more than once have rates 13 times higher than the general public. In other words, people who have been incarcerated multiple times are twice as likely to be homeless as those who are returning from their first prison term.

Unfortunately, being homeless makes formerly incarcerated people more likely to be arrested and incarcerated again, thanks to policies that criminalize homelessness. As law enforcement agencies aggressively enforce “offenses” such as sleeping in public spaces, panhandling, and public urination - not to mention other low-level offenses that are more visible when committed in public - formerly incarcerated people are unnecessarily funneled back through the “revolving door.””
 

casa_mugrienta

Duke status
Apr 13, 2008
21,551
67
48
Petak Island
www.instagram.com
“People who have been to prison just once experience homelessness at a rate nearly 7 times higher than the general public. But people who have been incarcerated more than once have rates 13 times higher than the general public. In other words, people who have been incarcerated multiple times are twice as likely to be homeless as those who are returning from their first prison term.

Unfortunately, being homeless makes formerly incarcerated people more likely to be arrested and incarcerated again, thanks to policies that criminalize homelessness. As law enforcement agencies aggressively enforce “offenses” such as sleeping in public spaces, panhandling, and public urination - not to mention other low-level offenses that are more visible when committed in public - formerly incarcerated people are unnecessarily funneled back through the “revolving door.””

From your link:

2% of formerly incarcerated people were homeless in 2008 (the most recent year for which data are available)

--------------------------

On the other hand he ETOH/drug addiction rates among the homeless are something like 70%.
 

Mike_Jones

Miki Dora status
Mar 5, 2009
5,202
6
38
Unfortunately, being homeless makes formerly incarcerated people more likely to be arrested and incarcerated again, thanks to policies that criminalize homelessness[/URL]
Wrong. The nature of schizophrenia combines with the Supreme Court's O'Connor v. Donaldson edict to make eliminating homelessness impossible. Trump's proposal to detain them in spite of O'Connor v. Donaldson means he plans to challenge O'Connor v. Donaldson at the Supreme Court

1. Ronald Reagan was a president, and had no power to eliminate policies which forcibly hospitalized mental patients even if he wanted to. The next president would have the same power to rescind the policy. The above claim to the contrary is a lie.

2. Having worked with schizophrenics I can testify that 90% of them want nothing to do with treatments or cures. They would rather die.

3. O'Connor v. Donaldson prevents treating the homeless, and allows them to continue self medicating with street drugs and alcohol.

4. Laws which prevent drug use, laws which prevent sex, urination, and defecation in public, and laws which prevent encroachment on private property, exist to protect the rights of citizens against the homeless. Police use them because laws against confining crazies are deemed illegal.

Rescind O'Connor v. Donaldson, and homelessness gets reversed. Don't rescind O'Connor v. Donaldson, and bitching when a president proposes a workable solution, and bloviating about the evils of incarcerating drug addicts is just talk.
.
 

casa_mugrienta

Duke status
Apr 13, 2008
21,551
67
48
Petak Island
www.instagram.com
Wrong. The nature of schizophrenia combines with the Supreme Court's O'Connor v. Donaldson edict to make eliminating homelessness impossible. Trump's proposal to detain them in spite of O'Connor v. Donaldson means he plans to challenge O'Connor v. Donaldson at the Supreme Court

1. Ronald Reagan was a president, and had no power to eliminate policies which forcibly hospitalized mental patients even if he wanted to. The next president would have the same power to rescind the policy. The above claim to the contrary is a lie.

2. Having worked with schizophrenics I can testify that 90% of them want nothing to do with treatments or cures. They would rather die.

3. O'Connor v. Donaldson prevents treating the homeless, and allows them to continue self medicating with street drugs and alcohol.

4. Laws which prevent drug use, laws which prevent sex, urination, and defecation in public, and laws which prevent encroachment on private property, exist to protect the rights of citizens against the homeless. Police use them because laws against confining crazies are deemed illegal.

Rescind O'Connor v. Donaldson, and homelessness gets reversed. Don't rescind O'Connor v. Donaldson, and bitching when a president proposes a workable solution, and bloviating about the evils of incarcerating drug addicts is just talk.
.

Actually some pretty good insight here.

Not so sure about the 90% number but yes, there seem to be a lot of them.

BTW - In school used to go have to go to a daily support group for people with severe mental illness... think of it as AA for nuts. Really opened my eyes to the struggle these people go through staying sane - and sober. What a fucking curse.