I remember a year or so ago one of the local shop owners here on the island had a velzy.. I think it was a pig shape.. which was epoxy and had very tiny holes in the deck.. anyone know what I'm talking about?
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epoxy board with tiny holes drilled into the deck... info needed
- Thread starter LBInjSurfer
- Start date
xtr's used to have venting problems, which would cause the deck to dealm. so, tehy put holes in the deck, so the air could escape. it didnt affect the board, because its closed cell foam and doesnt soak up water.
what is the difference between xtr compared to EPS and clark.
i ahve heard certain thigns about it, but never bothered askign or learning about it.
what is its strength and weight? similar to eps?
what about boyancy.
i was aware that it doesnt soak up water...even so i dont think tiny holes would be good for a board. i could still see it wanting to delam. salt water building up in the holes..slowly helping the glass delam. thats just what i think.
dk
i ahve heard certain thigns about it, but never bothered askign or learning about it.
what is its strength and weight? similar to eps?
what about boyancy.
i was aware that it doesnt soak up water...even so i dont think tiny holes would be good for a board. i could still see it wanting to delam. salt water building up in the holes..slowly helping the glass delam. thats just what i think.
dk
Poly Clark you know..hardly gasses, around 3 lbs. density.
Styro you know as water cooler foam, inside custom epoxy boards from Surftech, some high end Bics, Boardworks, and Kinetics. Soaks water, laminates well, usually used at 3/4 to 1.5 lbs. density.
XTR is the closed cell EPS, you find it colored pink or blue at Home Depot. Waterproof, and history shows it likes to gas over time and temperature, tho the new stuff is NEW, as yet unproven technology. The stuff Jeff Wells company uses. Used mostly around 1.2 to 2.5 lbs density.
The pinholes are slightly sealed, and theorectically smaller than H2O can pass thru, allowing gasses to escape, not allowing water to enter. They said that about the M-16/AR-15's .22 caliber barrel <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)
Proponents for all groups can argue their favorites, with no clear cut winner. YET.
Styro you know as water cooler foam, inside custom epoxy boards from Surftech, some high end Bics, Boardworks, and Kinetics. Soaks water, laminates well, usually used at 3/4 to 1.5 lbs. density.
XTR is the closed cell EPS, you find it colored pink or blue at Home Depot. Waterproof, and history shows it likes to gas over time and temperature, tho the new stuff is NEW, as yet unproven technology. The stuff Jeff Wells company uses. Used mostly around 1.2 to 2.5 lbs density.
The pinholes are slightly sealed, and theorectically smaller than H2O can pass thru, allowing gasses to escape, not allowing water to enter. They said that about the M-16/AR-15's .22 caliber barrel <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)
Proponents for all groups can argue their favorites, with no clear cut winner. YET.
Actually the holes on the deck are about 1/16" in diameter, and theres about 2 dozen of them along the stringer on the top only. The foam is completely closed cell, so the lam coat is only for strength, the foam is waterproof already.
DK, search for Mayhemb3's comments about XTRs, there are some issues... they're still working out all the kinks. Mine is great, strong, light, boyant, months of riding and NO pressure dings. It is starting to develop kind of a wierd and really subtle wavy look on the bottom that kinda just looks like sheeting water, but it doesn't go away <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Its got me worried, but I'm still killing it on that board so whatever <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm gonna switch back to poly for a while ... I'm completely used to the XTR feel at this point so it'll be interesting.
DK, search for Mayhemb3's comments about XTRs, there are some issues... they're still working out all the kinks. Mine is great, strong, light, boyant, months of riding and NO pressure dings. It is starting to develop kind of a wierd and really subtle wavy look on the bottom that kinda just looks like sheeting water, but it doesn't go away <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Its got me worried, but I'm still killing it on that board so whatever <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm gonna switch back to poly for a while ... I'm completely used to the XTR feel at this point so it'll be interesting.
Like I always said, I'd hate to be the guy paying for the privilege of doing someone elses R & D, so he can get the rewards and I'm left with something that sits in the corner of my junk pile <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Pickles, take a true straight edge onto that board, to check the ripples...just rock it on to check..
Pickles, take a true straight edge onto that board, to check the ripples...just rock it on to check..
XTR is an extruded polystyrene, manufactured by Corning, a closed cell foam. There are various types of extruded foam. Many have seen a Dow product in Home Depot in Pink or Blue. The density of the foam is appx. 2.2 to 2.4 lbs. Closed cell foam resists absorbing water, hence the tiny holes drilled into the XTR blanked boards. The downside to extruded foam is the "gassing", or delam problems associated with it. Generally, they gas when the deck is compressed and there are no escape vents. Thats what the holes are there for, to alleviate the gassing issue.
EPS is expanded polystyrene (aka cooler foam). Most, if not everybody has heard the downside to eps foam. That if you get a ding, the board will suck up water like a camel. Well, there is a "new" type of eps foam known as EDRO. The foam, when it's made, has a tighter cluster of beads than before. Eps foam beads are water resistant, but water goes into the space between the beads. With the new foam, water absorption is minimal. Eps foam comes in 1 to 3 lb densities and there a different bead sizes as well.
The XTR and EPS foams are more bouyant than clark/walker foam, which allows a surfer to go to a shorter or thinner board without sacraficing paddling power.
EPS is expanded polystyrene (aka cooler foam). Most, if not everybody has heard the downside to eps foam. That if you get a ding, the board will suck up water like a camel. Well, there is a "new" type of eps foam known as EDRO. The foam, when it's made, has a tighter cluster of beads than before. Eps foam beads are water resistant, but water goes into the space between the beads. With the new foam, water absorption is minimal. Eps foam comes in 1 to 3 lb densities and there a different bead sizes as well.
The XTR and EPS foams are more bouyant than clark/walker foam, which allows a surfer to go to a shorter or thinner board without sacraficing paddling power.
thanks for the lesson jeff! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/applause.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
edit: speaking of that i went to go pick up my eps blank today and the damn dudes decided to take off on me. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/socrazy.gif" alt="" />
2 1/2 hour drive to melbourne, didnt come back with a blank or epoxy and the surf sucked <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cussing.gif" alt="" />
the guy next door to gregs place tryed selling me his *****. guy seemed kinda shady and couldnt sell me any epoxy so there was no reaon to bother. he insisted his foam was "better" and said sammys stuff tends to crush. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
thought it was kinda shady to try and steal your neighbors buisness and talk down about em. so i ddint buy his ***** <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shameonyou.gif" alt="" />
edit: speaking of that i went to go pick up my eps blank today and the damn dudes decided to take off on me. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/socrazy.gif" alt="" />
2 1/2 hour drive to melbourne, didnt come back with a blank or epoxy and the surf sucked <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cussing.gif" alt="" />
the guy next door to gregs place tryed selling me his *****. guy seemed kinda shady and couldnt sell me any epoxy so there was no reaon to bother. he insisted his foam was "better" and said sammys stuff tends to crush. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
thought it was kinda shady to try and steal your neighbors buisness and talk down about em. so i ddint buy his ***** <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shameonyou.gif" alt="" />
Thanks for the clarification and update, Jeff.
As usual, my info is old and outdated.
But, the more wrong I am, the more I learn to correct info <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Any insights on Pickle's observation of a wavy bottom?
As usual, my info is old and outdated.
But, the more wrong I am, the more I learn to correct info <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Any insights on Pickle's observation of a wavy bottom?
On pickles board, my guess is that it is sanded down to 400, for a bit of shine. For some reason, some boards will keep the brush strokes. It isn't visable until you get past 320, THEN you're pulling your hair out! The interesting part, you can't feel them until you see them.
LeeD, HDX still uses XPS, which is a DOW product. Both in the blue and the white.
My preference for foam is 1.5 EPS, B bead. I like the float and the way it feels under my feet.
LeeD, HDX still uses XPS, which is a DOW product. Both in the blue and the white.
My preference for foam is 1.5 EPS, B bead. I like the float and the way it feels under my feet.
I guess the same problems still exists even after 20 years. I used epoxy extensively about 20 years ago upto the early 90's and have seen this a few times, It's foam cell memory gassing from when the blank was cut out with a hot wire. Not noticeable when new but through exposure and heat the foam eventually expands.
As far as the XPS it's still the same materials used if it's from Dow Corning as the same stuff we used years ago. I have spoken to a Dow engineer and he has confirmed this. Straight contradictions from what others here have posted.
We even tried the holes through the decks as you have mentioned here but still they would delam, or the holes would weaken the boards and eventually break on the dotted lines. One of the only ways to prevent this is to over glass the boards but what's the point at that stage. Over glassing the boards killed the performance.
From what I understand the resins have improved abit thanks to Resin Research. But still have some inconsistencies problems.
As far as the XPS it's still the same materials used if it's from Dow Corning as the same stuff we used years ago. I have spoken to a Dow engineer and he has confirmed this. Straight contradictions from what others here have posted.
We even tried the holes through the decks as you have mentioned here but still they would delam, or the holes would weaken the boards and eventually break on the dotted lines. One of the only ways to prevent this is to over glass the boards but what's the point at that stage. Over glassing the boards killed the performance.
From what I understand the resins have improved abit thanks to Resin Research. But still have some inconsistencies problems.
BB...
Thanks for that.
I'm more windsurf than surf, and had the last XTR style closed cell boards about 3 years ago. They expanded, gassed, just like the ones I had in the mid '90's, just like the Seatrend proto boards in the mid '80's.
But windsurf boards are higher volume, and sit in the hot sun for longer periods of time. Possibly keeping them IN a board bag (reflective), and NOT heating is a preventative measure against gassing induced problems.
Well, that kinda explains why I'm so slow in embracing new technology.
Do you think an actual air vent, one that you unscrew like sailboards, would alleviate the problem?
Thanks for that.
I'm more windsurf than surf, and had the last XTR style closed cell boards about 3 years ago. They expanded, gassed, just like the ones I had in the mid '90's, just like the Seatrend proto boards in the mid '80's.
But windsurf boards are higher volume, and sit in the hot sun for longer periods of time. Possibly keeping them IN a board bag (reflective), and NOT heating is a preventative measure against gassing induced problems.
Well, that kinda explains why I'm so slow in embracing new technology.
Do you think an actual air vent, one that you unscrew like sailboards, would alleviate the problem?
We actually tried the one way valves at one point but didn't help. The gases become isolated due to the closed cell nature of the foam. High stressed areas would gas and delam, usually on the deck and center. As the deck becomes exposed to compression the gases need to escape from the foam cells and end up delaming.
Thanks...
That's basically what my PearsonArrow closed cell boards did in the late '90's, my Seatrend's did in the mid 80's, and my Naish's (shaped by Iggy) did in the turn of the century.
Thought progress was such, but maybe, and maybe not. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />
That's basically what my PearsonArrow closed cell boards did in the late '90's, my Seatrend's did in the mid 80's, and my Naish's (shaped by Iggy) did in the turn of the century.
Thought progress was such, but maybe, and maybe not. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />
LeeD, I shouldn't have said delam. Technically the foam is sheared/separated. If you have time to examine the lamination under the bubble a thin layer of foam is still attached to the cloth.
That's the problem! The foam is too weak to take the compression and rebound pressures, and shears within itself.
The only way to fix the problem is making the shell strong enough to resist any flex from compression, but then ride problems and weight become a new issue.
The company I worked for tried both EPS and Poly higher density foams on the outer layer, up to about 1" thick, and failures persisted.
Currently, a mix of light styro, airex sandwich, and fiberglassed outer core is working OK in stiff, brittle riding sailboards designed for speed, not comfort.
Comfort needs to be shaped in by the shaper/designer.
Still the lifespan/planned obsolescents of around 120 days of hard usage without catastrophic impacts or sheer forces.
A really skilled rider, NEVER falling, and knowing how to land smoothly and within limitations, can milk the design to last double that.
The only way to fix the problem is making the shell strong enough to resist any flex from compression, but then ride problems and weight become a new issue.
The company I worked for tried both EPS and Poly higher density foams on the outer layer, up to about 1" thick, and failures persisted.
Currently, a mix of light styro, airex sandwich, and fiberglassed outer core is working OK in stiff, brittle riding sailboards designed for speed, not comfort.
Comfort needs to be shaped in by the shaper/designer.
Still the lifespan/planned obsolescents of around 120 days of hard usage without catastrophic impacts or sheer forces.
A really skilled rider, NEVER falling, and knowing how to land smoothly and within limitations, can milk the design to last double that.