Durham gets the first Russiagate conviction – Ex-Justice Department lawyer Kevin Clinesmith

afoaf

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Jun 25, 2008
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the flaw in your logic is that you assume the step happens atomically when the plea
is entered or when the sentencing occurs.

it is an independent event in a trial.

the judge could have filed it when the plea was submitted

they could file it now, prior to sentencing

they could file it during sentencing

regardless, it is when the judge says the person is convicted vis a vis the official court filing
that the individual is considered convicted under the law; the bet was on conviction

you're constructing a faulty if:then statement that reads if: plea submitted, then: convicted

that is not logically valid

what is valid is

if: judge files judgement of conviction, then: convicted
 

StuAzole

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Jan 22, 2016
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Federal Sentencing
The United States Sentencing Guidelines

Typically, sentencing will take place ninety days after a guilty plea or guilty verdict.
-----------------------------------

A guilty plea is the same as a guilty verdict/conviction, but without all the hassle of a trial and it's extensive procedures.

Again, a person does not get a sentencing hearing assigned until they've either been convicted guilty or plead guilty.

Both outcomes are the same in the eyes of the court.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction#:~:text=In law, a conviction is,, "not guilty").&text=After a defendant is convicted,appropriate sentence as a punishment.

"In law, a conviction is the verdict that usually results when a court of law finds a defendant guilty of a crime."

"After a defendant is convicted, the court determines the appropriate sentence as a punishment."

A verdict and a conviction are one in the same.
Neither of you will win this bet because the terms are too vague. In general terms, you're convicted when you plead guilty, but the conviction isn't technically final until judgment is entered since the plea can still be withdrawn up until that point. So you're both right and yet both wrong.
 

Autoprax

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Jan 24, 2011
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Neither of you will win this bet because the terms are too vague. In general terms, you're convicted when you plead guilty, but the conviction isn't technically final until judgment is entered since the plea can still be withdrawn up until that point. So you're both right and yet both wrong.
Hence, send the $ to moi.
 

afoaf

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Neither of you will win this bet because the terms are too vague. In general terms, you're convicted when you plead guilty, but the conviction isn't technically final until judgment is entered since the plea can still be withdrawn up until that point. So you're both right and yet both wrong.
I've been arguing this point all along
 

sirfun

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Apr 26, 2008
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U.S.A.

I admit "unsuccessful" he is qualified to talk about !! ) :)
 

Kento

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Jan 11, 2002
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The Bar

I admit "unsuccessful" he is qualified to talk about !! ) :)
Now you're just triggering ifallalot and his hero Rudy.
 

Random Guy

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Jan 16, 2002
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Not sure? But sentencing is supposed to be Dec. 10, and that was set back in Aug 19. So it sounds like a done deal to me?

So, as far as guilty pleas are concerned, how is this any different than Popadopoulos and Flynn when it comes to guilty pleas and their convictions at the time?
So as I was seeing if the sentencing happened, I found some site that said sentencing is scheduled for January
In case anyone else was interested
 
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Surfdog

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Yes, it was rescheduled.

It seems Clinesmith's attorney's are making a plea for probation in lieu of jail time.

Carter Page's attorney's are making arguments that Clinesmith's action led to media leaks that portray Page as a Russian agent, which are proven totally false. So, the sentencing should be much more harsh the just probation.

Still sounds like he's still convicted to me. Just a matter of how harsh a penalty at this point.
 

afoaf

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Yes, it was rescheduled.

It seems Clinesmith's attorney's are making a plea for probation in lieu of jail time.

Carter Page's attorney's are making arguments that Clinesmith's action led to media leaks that portray Page as a Russian agent, which are proven totally false. So, the sentencing should be much more harsh the just probation.

Still sounds like he's still convicted to me. Just a matter of how harsh a penalty at this point.
it's like you're somehow getting dumber
 

Surfdog

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I was wondering when afoaf was going to chime in on this CONVICTION bet we had.

I noticed the judgement document posted on Court Listener way back on Feb. 11, and crickets on it until now.

And as StuAzole mentions above, there's NO MENTION of conviction in the sentencing judgement doc.

"imposition of judgement" is not "conviction" or even "judgement of conviction".

The date of conviction is when he plead guilty, Aug 14, 2020 (on judgement doc), and judge accepted it in writing Aug 19.

Show me a document where "imposition of judgement" is the same as "judgement of conviction".

Imposition is "enforcement" of the judgement and sentencing.

Conviction happened 6 months ago.

You and I both know he was convicted back when he plead guilty. And that's what the bet was about.

Judgements and sentencing can take months, even years to complete, after conviction.

Look at Flynn's Court Listener doc, it's years long, AFTER he plead guilty to the original charge.
 

afoaf

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Jun 25, 2008
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You and I both know he was convicted back when he plead guilty.
thank you for making this point...

his plea was formally entered on January 29th, 2020 and sentenced rendered

that is clearly specified in the linked filing


it was also clearly specified in the August 19th appearance that the Decemeber 10th
hearing was scheduled for the purposes of formally entering the plea, conviction, and
rendering of sentence. the documents say as much...I have linked and quoted them
extensively

the only thing that happened in August was the submission of a plea agreement