Can we talk about calisthenics?

VonMeister

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What’s your take on a cruisy level of Cypionate for older guys? In one of the starting strength podcasts, Rippetoe talks about guys in their 50s that work out in his gym that get on say 300mg per week and feel 10 years younger. Helps a lot with energy and recovery.
This is not my expertise but I have some opinions.

In theory being more anabolic would be a good thing for muscle development and recovery. There's been a ton of studies on TRT and how it affects performance. I think the normal range is still somewhere between 300-900 give or take. No studies have found a performance difference for men who have been within that range...so for men who want to go from say 400 to 800, they won't see a noticeable or measurable performance benefit.

Men that have symptoms of hypogonadism I think are good candidates for TRT and should seek expert counsel. The problem is your family doctor knows jack sh!t about it and you need to sift through a lot of shady practices to find a good one. Also before going down the road of TRT you need to make sure there isn't something else going to that is preventing you from using what you already have. You can have a low T number, but also have a high free T number...meaning you body isn't using what you already have which could be causing the low production. Things like excess adipose tissue, alcohol abuse, liver disease, low SBHG can all have a negative effect on your bodies ability to use testosterone. Depending on the person, lifestyle adjustments could be all that's necessary.

There's so much out there about TRT and a lot of it is opinion. A very well respected DR doses on how patients feel and pays very little attention to the total testosterone number. It's common for his patients to have a total around 1200. He's worried more about driving up free T and how the patient feels vs finding a total number.

Some prescribers are worried about hematocrit levels spiking while others feel there is an actual benefit to increased hematocrit.

Water retention is a short term issue while your body adapts to new hormone levels. Blood pressure will rise and for some it's temporary while for others it's permanent and will need to be addressed. Do you want to cause something and then add a medication to fix it?

When you drive testosterone up your estrogen will rise. Some prescribers (very bad awful ones) will try and manage this with an aromatase inhibitor, which is poison. Estrogen rising is fine if it's in balance with total T. Estrogen also is an important part of fighting disease like cancer.

Some say there is a connection with TRT and prostate cancer yet every study I'm aware of has called bullshit on this.

There is a ton of placebo effect with TRT.

If I felt OK and my total T was within the normal range I probably would look at TRT as a last resort and begin with lifestyle adjustments. Are you eating right? DO you have more than 1-3 drinks per week? Are you meeting the minimum guidelines for physical activity and do you strength train regularly? I know a lot of people who are on TRT and there is a honeymoon phase where you feel awesome but you usually come back down to your mean after some time. TRT is useful for somme but it's not magic.
 

VonMeister

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I should have mentioned above....SLEEP. If you aren't getting enough hours of uninterrupted sleep you will have all sorts of symptoms similar to those present with hypogonadism. Also lack of sleep is a cause of low T. To make matters worse low sleep is prevalent as we age...we just don't sleep as well.
 
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Swallow Tail

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I should have mentioned above....SLEEP. If you aren't getting enough hours of uninterrupted sleep you will have all sorts of symptoms similar to those present with hypogonadism. Also lack of sleep is a cause of low T. To make matters worse low sleep is prevalent as we age...we just don't sleep as well.
Im 51, have OSA (obstructive sleep apnea) and haven’t used a CPAP in about 5 yrs - for no particularly good reason - and have had bad fatigue and also muscle weakness. finally going to doc to get CPAP machine calibrated and start using again. Having T levels tested as well. Sleep is overlooked -the lack thereof can cause so many issues that “mimic“ other potential diagnoses.

I had blood work & oxygen levels tested about a year ago BC I was getting completely gassed out on hiking trails - they are very strenuous but should not cause that. 9/9 chance it’s sleep, and didn‘t even think to mention OSA to that doc. That’s why after 10 yrs or so w/o a GP I got one this week.
 

LifeOnMars

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What’s your take on a cruisy level of Cypionate for older guys? In one of the starting strength podcasts, Rippetoe talks about guys in their 50s that work out in his gym that get on say 300mg per week and feel 10 years younger. Helps a lot with energy and recovery.
that's about a half dose steroid cycle, many people take TRT in the 100-200mg range per week
 

averagejoe

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My diet and sleep are on point. I like beer and weed but I actually feel better the less I partake. I’m the biggest and strongest I’ve been in my life. I love lifting. Progressive overload keeps it interesting. This winter in Minnesota has been pretty rough. I love walking and hiking but when it drops below zero it’s really unpleasant and so it’s easy to get sedentary besides lifting and inertia sets in. It’s been nice enough to get back to hiking with the dog. Nice round of disc golf yesterday afternoon and she’s wrecked. Nice to feel the energy coming back.
 

averagejoe

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I would accept the opinion of a roided out influencer just as soon as I would take the opinion of a vegan yoga aficionado.
What’s your opinion on power cleans for guys 50+? In Barbell Prescription and in a few other publications they’re very lukewarm on them. I’m interested in adding them in place of deadlifts once a week and I’m considering going to a strength gym nearby that says they coach Olympic lifts on their website. I’ve practiced some light power cleans and my concern is that I can’t get my elbows up very high. I’ve seen the workarounds to increase mobility on Squat University and a couple other places but I’m wondering if it’s worth the time and energy at 50 yrs old.
 

VonMeister

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What’s your opinion on power cleans for guys 50+? In Barbell Prescription and in a few other publications they’re very lukewarm on them. I’m interested in adding them in place of deadlifts once a week and I’m considering going to a strength gym nearby that says they coach Olympic lifts on their website. I’ve practiced some light power cleans and my concern is that I can’t get my elbows up very high. I’ve seen the workarounds to increase mobility on Squat University and a couple other places but I’m wondering if it’s worth the time and energy at 50 yrs old.
I don't think they are necessary. They are a pretty dynamic movement that requires strong technique to avoid aches and pains as a result. You would be just as well off by doing Pendalay Rows and get your anaerobic conditioning elsewhere. The rack position for the power clean is hard and a pain in the ass to get in to. I don't think it's worth the time investment. That said the best way to increase mobility for the rack position is to just get into the rack position. Doing anything other than that really doesn't work very well.
 
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averagejoe

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I don't think they are necessary. They are a pretty dynamic movement that requires strong technique to avoid aches and pains as a result. You would be just as well off by doing Pendalay Rows and get your anaerobic conditioning elsewhere. The rack position for the power clean is hard and a pain in the ass to get in to. I don't think it's worth the time investment. That said the best way to increase mobility for the rack position is to just get into the rack position. Doing anything other than that really doesn't work very well.
Thanks
 

PRCD

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I don't think they are necessary. They are a pretty dynamic movement that requires strong technique to avoid aches and pains as a result. You would be just as well off by doing Pendalay Rows and get your anaerobic conditioning elsewhere. The rack position for the power clean is hard and a pain in the ass to get in to. I don't think it's worth the time investment. That said the best way to increase mobility for the rack position is to just get into the rack position. Doing anything other than that really doesn't work very well.
Have you ever programmed the broad jump for power? Recall that diagram in SS stating that the power clean was the explosive, high-power counterpart to the DL. Seems like you can get more benefit with a low-skill, higher-power movement like the broad jump. Sure, you can't load it except with a weighted vest but you can't really load the power clean unless you get pretty good at it and develop the mobility in the rack position.
 

Autoprax

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I don't think they are necessary. They are a pretty dynamic movement that requires strong technique to avoid aches and pains as a result. You would be just as well off by doing Pendalay Rows and get your anaerobic conditioning elsewhere. The rack position for the power clean is hard and a pain in the ass to get in to. I don't think it's worth the time investment. That said the best way to increase mobility for the rack position is to just get into the rack position. Doing anything other than that really doesn't work very well.
I love love love hang cleans.

Are they nessessary?

No.

But I got better at moving a lot of weight (for me) that way.
 
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Damn, these guys are in great physical shape. These muscles are simply unreal. I wish I was in such good shape at 50. Undoubtedly, a huge number of factors affect our appearance and our physical components. To look like this in your 50s, you need to exercise, eat the right food, and be positive. Undoubtedly, genetics also play a role. It also seems to me that various supplements and steroids are an important factor. In my 30s, I take various supplements to build muscle mass. I usually buy them at https://purerawz.co/. So those who claim that only genetics is important are deeply mistaken; everything is important.
 
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VonMeister

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Have you ever programmed the broad jump for power? Recall that diagram in SS stating that the power clean was the explosive, high-power counterpart to the DL. Seems like you can get more benefit with a low-skill, higher-power movement like the broad jump. Sure, you can't load it except with a weighted vest but you can't really load the power clean unless you get pretty good at it and develop the mobility in the rack position.
I missed this one earlier. I just don't know that explosive training is necessary unless you are doing explosive things......and doing explosive things is enough training. I could see the broad jump getting pretty boring pretty quickly. I really like hill sprints. I think they train that aspect but also really get after things on the anaerobic side.
 

PRCD

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I missed this one earlier. I just don't know that explosive training is necessary unless you are doing explosive things......and doing explosive things is enough training. I could see the broad jump getting pretty boring pretty quickly. I really like hill sprints. I think they train that aspect but also really get after things on the anaerobic side.
Israetel said speed work and fast lifts are mostly useless except maybe as a light day.
 

VonMeister

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Israetel said speed work and fast lifts are mostly useless except maybe as a light day.
There seems to be a consensus that deadlifts should be done as quickly as possible (unless you're doing a paused or tempo version) so your warmups are going to start very speedy. Once things get heavy the focus becomes on the grind.

There's a train of thought that the different muscle fibers respond to different training tempos. You've heard of fast and slow twitch muscles...which is a layman's term attempting to describe fiber, motor units, and function. The truth is no one type of muscle fiber only does one thing. They are all activated and trained no matter the tempo so you don't need to spend a lot of time thinking about this or specifically training them when strength training. Performing the actual sport will take care of all the specific training the "fast twitch" fibers need as they don't need to be loaded to be stressed. For instance, if Brian Shaw played 18 holes of golf today he would be sore in many areas of his body including the thighs shoulders and back. Brian is one of the strongest people on earth but he would be considered detrained in this area. By the second or third time he played the muscle fatigue and sorenesss would be gone despite him doing nothing specific to train aside from performing the activity.
 
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PRCD

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There seems to be a consensus that deadlifts should be done as quickly as possible (unless you're doing a paused or tempo version) so your warmups are going to start very speedy. Once things get heavy the focus becomes on the grind.
SPOST pg 84-85
Maximal intent tomove (MIM) is a term whtat describes how har da lifter pushes or pulls the bar. With a true maximal intent, both performance of a lift in competition and the benefits to physiology in training are maximized. A sound program should recommend that most main training lifts are moved with maximum intent. However, the bar load still mostly determines velocity, as you're only going to move 85% (1RM) so fast. Speed work describes not the MIM, but rather the purposeful use of lighter weights in order to develop movement velocity, which hypothetically somehow transfers to enhanced performances with competition-heavy weights.

The problem with speed-work is two-fold. Firstly, MIM accomplishes all of the neural and fiber-type alterations the speed work does, so any argument for speed work cannot rest on those benefits. Secondly, speed work knowingly decreases intensity overload, while MIM does not.

So if the performance transfer of speed work is no higher than MIM but intensity overload is violated by employing it, should we discard speed work altogether? For powerlifting very likely.

Many lifters have benefitted from programs that incorporate speed days, but that is largely due to the fact that speed days both lower intensity and volume of training (almost no one does 10 sets of 5 for speed). This lowered volume and intensity assist the program effect by acting as light sessions to enahance fatigue mgmt and recovery. More recovery can absolutely translate to better performances given other elements of proper programming are in place.

The verdict on speed work is this: you can absolutely do it as a resuilt of doing MIM with light-day loads to manage fatigue, but it's almost certainly not worth doing for the development of high submaximal velocities or for some other form of what amounts to being its own sake.

SPOST, pg 128
INterestingly , the hamstrings are notoriously fast-twitch dominant in most people which may explain, in addition to the great use of (faster twitch) upper body musclature, why the deadlift is so fatiguing.
SPOST, pg 130
One of the reasons not yet mentioned for the deadlift being as fatiguing as it is the fact that it's a poorly leveraged lift. If only we could get the bar path completely vertical and in our center of gravity like a squat or a trap bar deadlift! The muscles of the spine and posterior chain must work that much hard to support a rigid posture while leaning over, and that likely taxes them so much as to contribute to a higher total fatigue from deadlifting. Poor leverages, esp. due to the movement of the center of pressure (bar plus lifter) away from the summed center of rotation of all of the joints can necessitate a maximal contraction of the supporting muscles ...