Can we talk about abstinence

$kully

Duke status
Feb 27, 2009
47,976
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So you really think you have all the same opportunities in the market as anyone else? Next you're gonna tell me that every kid in this country is born with the same opportunities right?
 

Pissbiscuit

Miki Dora status
Jun 25, 2008
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Surfdog said:
Ifall's and frvcvs "industry" pensions are riding on it. So can you, if you play smart.
Yeah thanks for bringing that one up, surfdog!

You two think the market's a casino, you are familiar with Romney's work, and you labor under the delusion a private employer's "pension" is anything other than a parachute in a piggy bank for the people that vote to authorize private equity to raid it?

My Dad started with NYC Transit Authority in 54. He is getting a pension. Private Sector in 2015 for late Gen Xers like us? I'd sooner count on Social Security.
 

Surfdog

Duke status
Apr 22, 2001
19,771
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frvcvs said:
So you really think you have all the same opportunities in the market as anyone else? Next you're gonna tell me that every kid in this country is born with the same opportunities right?
You think your Hollywood union pension is riding on just porn PPV and box office receipts? :monkey: That sh!t is just barely paying day to day expenses.

Look at you pensions portfolio for a reality check, darlings.
 

Pissbiscuit

Miki Dora status
Jun 25, 2008
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frvcvs said:
1. So you really think you have all the same opportunities in the market as anyone else?
2. Next you're gonna tell me that every kid in this country is born with the same opportunities right?
1. I don't have Jamie Dimon's opportunity. I have exactly the same opportunity as every other wage slave with a whateverTrade account, and I am thankful for the opportunity to own dividend-paying means of production for the long haul.

2. No, jeebus you're as reactionary as a Republican primary voter at times. I graduated college with no debt thanks to my parents so my life was basically handed to me.

You act like I'm going to that office from South Park, putting $1,000 in "....and it's gone". That isn't what is happening here. I have mostly S&P 500 index funds. I swooped up some tobacco dividend stocks, some Dow dog dividend stocks, some utility dividend stocks, a little slop in a Canadian market benchmark, and two different pharmas I picked off a list of "weed stocks".

By and large I am investing in stuff like Coca Cola and GE, Procter, Nike...this isn't leveraged derivatives by a long shot.
 

ElOgro

Duke status
Dec 3, 2010
21,724
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Surfdog said:
frvcvs said:
So you really think you have all the same opportunities in the market as anyone else? Next you're gonna tell me that every kid in this country is born with the same opportunities right?
You think your Hollywood union pension is riding on just porn PPV and box office receipts? :monkey: That sh!t is just barely paying day to day expenses.

Look at you pensions portfolio for a reality check, darlings.
This isn't the first time this has been pointed out to the both of them.
 

Surfdog

Duke status
Apr 22, 2001
19,771
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Pissbiscuit said:
frvcvs said:
1. So you really think you have all the same opportunities in the market as anyone else?
2. Next you're gonna tell me that every kid in this country is born with the same opportunities right?
1. I don't have Jamie Dimon's opportunity. I have exactly the same opportunity as every other wage slave with a whateverTrade account, and I am thankful for the opportunity to own dividend-paying means of production for the long haul.

2. No, jeebus you're as reactionary as a Republican primary voter at times. I graduated college with no debt thanks to my parents so my life was basically handed to me.

You act like I'm going to that office from South Park, putting $1,000 in "....and it's gone". That isn't what is happening here. I have mostly S&P 500 index funds. I swooped up some tobacco dividend stocks, some Dow dog dividend stocks, some utility dividend stocks, a little slop in a Canadian market benchmark, and two different pharmas I picked off a list of "weed stocks".

By and large I am investing in stuff like Coca Cola and GE, Procter, Nike...this isn't leveraged derivatives by a long shot.
Yep, dividend paying stocks are the key for long haul investing. I wish I'd put more in when I was younger. Especially now and recent years, with banks paying less interest on savings than our inflation rate, parking most of your money in those "safe" savings accounts, that gain a "whopping" 1% to maybe 1-1/2% annually :foreheadslap: for term accounts, you're actually LOSING money in those accounts, even after our "supposed" low inflation (ha!!) gets through with those returns.

My couch cushions collect more interest than most bank parked $$$ these days. :loser:
 

$kully

Duke status
Feb 27, 2009
47,976
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Surfdog said:
frvcvs said:
So you really think you have all the same opportunities in the market as anyone else? Next you're gonna tell me that every kid in this country is born with the same opportunities right?
You think your Hollywood union pension is riding on just porn PPV and box office receipts? :monkey: That sh!t is just barely paying day to day expenses.

Look at you pensions portfolio for a reality check, darlings.
You didn't answer my question. Do you think you have the same opportunities with your portfolio as the typical wall street trader has with his personal portfolio let alone some big shot hedge funder? Sure they let us get us taste. Sure we can make some money and watch our nest eggs grow. But there's a market for us and a market for them. And a lot of the risk they're taking on is with our money not theirs. That's the problem. When it all comes tumbling down we take the hit and they end up just fine.

 

Ifallalot

Duke status
Dec 17, 2008
68,710
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HB, CA
Mine's not Hollywood. I work for a much bigger, much richer entity

Do you think I have the same opportunities that the people who manage the pension have? Absolutely not.

I can learn how to become an expert gambler in Vegas or I can in New York. Good on you guys who want to gamble; I don't like gambling.
 

Pissbiscuit

Miki Dora status
Jun 25, 2008
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frvcvs said:
And a lot of the risk they're taking on is with our money not theirs. That's the problem. When it all comes tumbling down we take the hit and they end up just fine.
If they were taking risk with anyone's money we wouldn't have these problems in the first place. Yours, mine, irrelevant.

It's when they risk money they don't have and manage to lose it that we get bit in the rectum.

These are superb arguments for more thoroughly regulated markets, much of which probably entails enforcing the laws we already have and/or making the penalty more painful than compliance. These are not a reason to dismiss long term value investing over an employed-life time horizon as equivalent to gambling.
 

$kully

Duke status
Feb 27, 2009
47,976
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Not saying we shouldn't get into the market. Just pointing out that it's foolish to think we're playing the same game by the same set of rules as those on Wall St. Not even close.
 

Ifallalot

Duke status
Dec 17, 2008
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HB, CA
When you put your money in you're allowing the criminals to make money off of your money.

And then do things like this

Banks Bet Greece Defaults on Debt They Helped Hide
By DEALBOOK FEBRUARY 25, 2010 4:21 AM February 25, 2010 4:21 am
Police
Bets by some of the same banks that helped Greece shroud its mounting debts may actually now be pushing the nation closer to the brink of financial ruin, Nelson D. Schwartz and Eric Dash report in The New York Times.

Echoing the kind of trades that nearly toppled the American International Group, the increasingly popular insurance against the risk of a Greek default is making it harder for Athens to raise the money it needs to pay its bills, according to traders and money managers.

These contracts, known as credit-default swaps, effectively let banks and hedge funds wager on the financial equivalent of a four-alarm fire: a default by a company or, in the case of Greece, an entire country. If Greece reneges on its debts, traders who own these swaps stand to profit.

“It’s like buying fire insurance on your neighbor’s house — you create an incentive to burn down the house,” said Philip Gisdakis, head of credit strategy at UniCredit in Munich.

As Greece’s financial condition has worsened, undermining the euro, the role of Goldman Sachs and other major banks in masking the true extent of the country’s problems has drawn criticism from European leaders. But even before that issue became apparent, a little-known company backed by Goldman, JP Morgan Chase and about a dozen other banks had created an index that enabled market players to bet on whether Greece and other European nations would go bust.

Last September, the company, the Markit Group of London, introduced the iTraxx SovX Western Europe index, which is based on such swaps and let traders gamble on Greece shortly before the crisis. Such derivatives have assumed an outsize role in Europe’s debt crisis, as traders focus on their daily gyrations.

A result, some traders say, is a vicious circle. As banks and others rush into these swaps, the cost of insuring Greece’s debt rises. Alarmed by that bearish signal, bond investors then shun Greek bonds, making it harder for the country to borrow. That, in turn, adds to the anxiety — and the whole thing starts over again.

On trading desks, debate is fierce over what exactly is behind Greece’s recent troubles. Some traders say swaps have made the problem worse, while others say Greece’s deteriorating finances are to blame.

“This is a country that is issuing paper into a weakening market,” said Ashish Shah, co-head of credit strategy at Barclays Capital, referring to Greece’s need for continual borrowing.

But while some European leaders have blamed financial speculators in general for worsening the crisis, the French finance minister, Christine Lagarde, last week singled out credit-default swaps. Ms. Lagarde said a few players dominated this arena, which she said needed tighter regulation.

Trading in Markit’s sovereign credit derivative index soared this year, helping to drive up the cost of insuring Greek debt, and, in turn, what Athens must pay to borrow money. The cost of insuring $10 million of Greek bonds, for instance, rose to more than $400,000 in February, up from $282,000 in early January.

On several days in late January and early February, as demand for swaps protection soared, investors in Greek bonds fled the market, raising doubts about whether Greece could find buyers for coming bond offerings.

“It’s the blind leading the blind,” said Sylvain R. Raynes, an expert in structured finance at R&R Consulting in New York. “The iTraxx SovX did not create the situation, but it has exacerbated it.”

The Markit index is made up of the 15 most heavily traded credit-default swaps in Europe and covers other troubled economies like Portugal and Spain. And as worries about those countries’ debts moved markets around the world in February, trading in the index exploded.

In February, demand for such index contracts hit $109.3 billion, up from $52.9 billion in January. Markit collects a flat fee by licensing brokers to trade the index.

European banks including the Swiss giants Credit Suisse and UBS, France’s Société Générale and BNP Paribas and Deutsche Bank of Germany have been among the heaviest buyers of swaps insurance, according to traders and bankers who asked for anonymity because they were not authorized to comment publicly.

That is because those countries are the most exposed. French banks hold $75.4 billion worth of Greek debt, followed by Swiss institutions, at $64 billion, according to the Bank for International Settlements. German banks’ exposure stands at $43.2 billion.

Trading in credit-default swaps linked only to Greek debt has also surged, but is still smaller than the country’s actual debt load of $300 billion. The overall amount of insurance on Greek debt hit $85 billion in February, up from $38 billion a year ago, according to the Depository Trust and Clearing Corporation, which tracks swaps trading.

Markit says its index is a tool for traders, rather than a market driver.

In a statement, Markit said its index was started to satisfy market demand, and had improved the ability of traders to hedge their risks. The index and similar products, it added, actually make it easier for buyers and sellers to gauge prices for instruments that are traded among players over the counter, rather than on exchanges.

“These indices have helped bring transparency to the sovereign C.D.S. market,” Markit said. “Prior to their creation, there was no established benchmark index enabling investors to track the performance of segments of the sovereign C.D.S. market.”

Some money managers say trading in Greek swaps alone, not the broader index, is the problem.

“It’s like the tail wagging the dog,” said Markus Krygier, senior portfolio manager at Amundi Asset Management in London, which has $40 billion in global fixed-income assets. “There is a knock-on effect, as underlying positions begin to seem riskier, triggering risk models and forcing portfolio managers to sell Greek bonds.”

If that sounds familiar, it should. Critics of these instruments contend swaps contributed to the fall of Lehman Brothers. But until recently, there was little demand for insurance on government debt. The possibility that a developed country could default on its obligations seemed remote.

As a result, many foreign banks that held Greek bonds or entered into other financial transactions with the government did not hedge against the risk of a default. Now, they are scrambling for insurance.

“Greece is not a small country,” said Mr. Raynes, at R&R in New York. “Credit-default swaps give the illusion of safety but actually increase systemic risk.”
 

oneula

Miki Dora status
Jun 3, 2004
3,895
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i'm at the lowest end of the crazy financial machine but i get to see part of it and its not pretty at any level. The market as a long haul put your money in and leave it alone till you retire is still the best thing you can do other than getting ahold of lots of appreciating land or gold on the real cheap. But all commodities, houses, gold, land can still depreciate over time and circumstances. If you are trying to play the market for a quick fix and aren't part of those in control you are doomed unless you somehow have access to privilaged info, but you go to jail for doing that.

Greece is nothing but a blip, better keep your eye out east cause things aren't looking so hot out there anymore. Too much weight to bear from too much growth too fast, the next bubble for sure. xx trillion in valuation lost in just a couple of days. The Greek debt is nothing compared to that, expecially if it continues. Ali bye bye.

wonder what kind of future is in store for the two bastards who will always wonder why their whole lives, why was i not loved enough upon my creation. So much heart ache for those children growing up believing you were a "mistake" or not important enough. I hope there's a good answer from both mother and father.

 

Surfdog

Duke status
Apr 22, 2001
19,771
1,011
113
Oceanside,CA
ifallalot said:
Mine's not Hollywood. I work for a much bigger, much richer entity

Do you think I have the same opportunities that the people who manage the pension have? Absolutely not.

I can learn how to become an expert gambler in Vegas or I can in New York. Good on you guys who want to gamble; I don't like gambling.
So, you work for the same big corpo that you seem to bitch about here?
 

Ifallalot

Duke status
Dec 17, 2008
68,710
4,433
113
HB, CA
Surfdog said:
ifallalot said:
Mine's not Hollywood. I work for a much bigger, much richer entity

Do you think I have the same opportunities that the people who manage the pension have? Absolutely not.

I can learn how to become an expert gambler in Vegas or I can in New York. Good on you guys who want to gamble; I don't like gambling.
So, you work for the same big corpo that you seem to bitch about here?
No, I don't work for a bank and the vast majority of the employees are stateside
 

test_article

Kelly Slater status
Sep 25, 2009
8,863
295
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Body of Christ, Texas
Betting on this doesn't seem to be that big a gamble if you learn how to go about it. Note logarithmic scale.



If this craters we'll all have bigger problems than our undersized bank accounts.