Bush to allow doctors to ignore hippocratic oath

misterhat

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Dec 21, 2007
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If I had a moral objection to handling meat, I wouldnt be a butcher.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-conscience2-2008dec02,0,7013690.story

Broader medical refusal rule may go far beyond abortion
The Bush administration plans a new 'right of conscience' rule that would allow more workers to refuse more procedures. Critics say it could apply to artificial insemination and birth control.
By David G. Savage
December 2, 2008
Reporting from Washington -- The outgoing Bush administration is planning to announce a broad new "right of conscience" rule permitting medical facilities, doctors, nurses, pharmacists and other healthcare workers to refuse to participate in any procedure they find morally objectionable, including abortion and possibly even artificial insemination and birth control.

For more than 30 years, federal law has dictated that doctors and nurses may refuse to perform abortions. The new rule would go further by making clear that healthcare workers also may refuse to provide information or advice to patients who might want an abortion.



Discuss the new ruleIt also seeks to cover more employees. For example, in addition to a surgeon and a nurse in an operating room, the rule would extend to "an employee whose task it is to clean the instruments," the draft rule said.

The "conscience" rule could set the stage for an abortion controversy in the early months of Barack Obama's administration.

During the campaign, President-elect Obama sought to find a middle ground on the issue. He said there is a "moral dimension to abortion" that cannot be ignored, but he also promised to protect the rights of women who seek abortion.


While the rule could eventually be overturned by the new administration, the process might open a wound that could take months of wrangling to close again.

Health and Human Services Department officials said the rule would apply to "any entity" that receives federal funds. It estimated 584,000 entities could be covered, including 4,800 hospitals, 234,000 doctor's offices and 58,000 pharmacies.

Proponents, including the Christian Medical Assn. and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, say the rule is not limited to abortion. It will protect doctors who do not wish to prescribe birth control or to provide artificial insemination, said Dr. David Stevens, president of CMA.

"The real battle line is the morning-after pill," he said. "This prevents the embryo from implanting. This involves moral complicity. Doctors should not be required to dispense a medication they have a moral objection to."

Critics of the rule say it will sacrifice patients' health to the religious beliefs of providers.

The American Medical Assn. and the American Hospital Assn. in October urged HHS to drop the regulation. The Planned Parenthood Foundation and other backers of abortion rights condemned the rule as a last-gasp effort by the Bush administration to please social conservatives.

"It's unconscionable that the Bush administration, while promising a smooth transition, would take a final opportunity to politicize women's health," said Cecile Richards, president of Planned Parenthood.

Despite the controversy, HHS Secretary Mike Leavitt said he intends to issue the rule as a final regulation before the Obama administration takes office, to protect the moral conscience of persons in the healthcare industry. Abortion-rights advocates are just as insistent that the rights of a patient come first.

If the regulation is issued before Dec. 20, it will be final when the new administration takes office, HHS officials say. Overturning it would require publishing a proposed new rule for public comment and then waiting months to accept comments before drafting a final rule.

Abortion-rights advocates think it might be easier to get Congress to reject the rule. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), before being nominated Monday for secretary of State, and Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.) have said they would move to reverse it.

The HHS proposal has set off a sharp debate about medical ethics and the duties of healthcare workers.

Last year, the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology said a "patient's well-being must be paramount" when a conflict arises over a medical professional's beliefs.

In calling for limits on “conscientious refusals,” ACOG cited four recent examples. In Texas, a pharmacist rejected a rape victim's prescription for emergency contraception. In Virginia, a 42-year-old mother of two became pregnant after being refused emergency contraception. In California, a physician refused to perform artificial insemination for a lesbian couple. (In August, the California Supreme Court ruled that this refusal amounted to illegal discrimination based on sexual orientation.) And in Nebraska, a 19-year-old with a life-threatening embolism was refused an early abortion at a religiously affiliated hospital.

"Although respect for conscience is important, conscientious refusals should be limited if they constitute an imposition of religious or moral beliefs on patients [or] negatively affect a patient's health," ACOG's Committee on Ethics said. It also said physicians have a "duty to refer patients in a timely manner to other providers if they do not feel that they can in conscience provide the standard reproductive services that patients request."

Leavitt said ACOG threatened to brand as "unprofessional" those who do not share its attitudes toward abortion. In August, he criticized "the development of an environment in the healthcare field that is intolerant of individual conscience, certain religious beliefs, ethnic and cultural traditions and moral convictions."

In its announcement, HHS said the proposed rule was needed because of an attitude "that healthcare professionals should be required to provide or assist in the provision of medicine or procedures to which they object, or else risk being subjected to discrimination."

In a media briefing, Leavitt said the rule was focused on abortion, not contraception. But others said its broad language goes beyond abortion.

Since the 1970s, Congress has said no person may be compelled to perform or assist in performing an abortion or sterilization. One law says no person may be required to assist in a "health service program or research activity" that is "contrary to his religious beliefs or moral convictions." The HHS rule says that law should be enforced "broadly" to cover any "activity related in any way to providing medicine, healthcare or any other service related to health or welfare."

Judith Waxman, a lawyer for the National Women's Law Center, said Leavitt's office has extended the law far beyond what was understood. "This goes way beyond abortion," she said. It could reach disputes over contraception, sperm donations and end-of-life care.

"This kind of rule could wreak havoc in a hospital if any employee can declare they are not willing to do certain parts of their job," she said.
 

20W-50 and blood

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"including abortion and possibly even artificial insemination and birth control."
Nobody shoudl eb legally forced to do something at work. Besides..what kidna of F()tards would want to force a doctor to perform an abortion or artificial insem. if the doctor doesnt want to? If someone doesnt want to redo my headgaskey, why teh f()ck shoudl they be legally bound to do so?
 

misterhat

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put it this way. say you own a garage, but one of your employees is morally opposed to doing oil changes, which is a major source of your income, and the government mandates that you cannot fire him. that's one potential problem with this rule, especially since it applies to a lot of other health care workers other than doctors.

another thing is that "birth control" has quite a few legitimate uses completely unrelated to preventing pregnancy. it's completely unfair that a pharmacist can make some chick suffer from ovarian cysts just because he has some fringe beliefs.
 

20W-50 and blood

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What damn business does teh givernemtn have in FORCING someone to perform a procedure? There are 3 billion places to get an abortion..many of which specialize in it. More than 90% of the time, the hippocratic oath has nothing to do with an abortion.
 

blakestah

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What damn business does teh givernemtn have in FORCING someone to perform a procedure? There are 3 billion places to get an abortion..many of which specialize in it. More than 90% of the time, the hippocratic oath has nothing to do with an abortion.
Does the medical profession choose its governing ethics, does the government choose it, or does the doctor choose it?

Each of these governing philosophies has substantial ramifications. If the medical profession chooses it, what if it says euthanasia is legal so long as the physician deems it a mercy death?

Does the government choose it? What if the government decides it is in its best interests to have doctors implant GPS trackers in all first generation immigrants. Would the doctor have to comply?

Does the doctor choose it? What if a doctor did not like cablanasian people, and Tiger Woods got in a car accident, and the only doctor in the ER didn't like his sub-ethnicity. Could he make a moral decision to refuse to treat?

Personally, I prefer the world in which the medical profession makes the decisions about what is ethical in the medical profession, and the government, and the individual doctors, get to just deal with it in their own ways. If a doctor did not want to perform abortions, and the medical profession says abortions are ethical in some circumstances, then that doctor better not specialize in OB work. The medical profession is far better equipped, and less conflicted, in making ethical judgments about medicine than the government.
 

Landloct

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Are there many abortion providers morally opposed to abortion?
 

FecalFace

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Personally, I prefer the world in which the medical profession makes the decisions about what is ethical in the medical profession, and the government, and the individual doctors, get to just deal with it in their own ways.
So if a doctor is behaving unethically he will go to hospital prison? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Who will enforce the ethical law?

Surely you don't propose self-regulation?
 

VaB

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In my opinion, there are 2 kinds of procedures. Elective and emergent. In elective procedure, the physician has the right to refuse. If you don't agree with abortions, don't do them. Fine. Whatever.. I don't care.

The second procedure is emergent. The practicioner of emergent procedures should be held to the local standard of care and that includes all possible options and information. If he/she fails to meet these standards his/her medical license should be revoked and he/she should face all civil and federal consequences.

I doubt this legislature can pass.
 

VaB

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I agree for the most part. Would an abortion in a situation where the pregnant mother's life is at risk be considered elective? How about if it's known that the embryo will grow to be severely handicapped and live a life of pain?

I think the ethics decisions in situations like this should be left to the patient and not the doctor. The doctor should be able to present you with your options and you as a patient should make the ethical decisions. If you feel strongly against such things perhaps you should find a different line of work.
Both elective. Emergent are things that are going to kill you today or this week/month. Elective are things that may cause harm to you soon. The question to ask is can this wait?

As for leaving ethics up to the patient. That too can be risky, the doc must make sure the patients ethics are in line with the standard of care for that area. An especially tricky area with kids.

For instance, a jehova's witness doesn't want their kid to get a lifesaving blood transfusion. what do you do? etc.
 

elcalvo

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As a patient, I have the legal and moral right to decide which medical procedures I want or do not want for myself.

A physician in private practise has the legal and moral right not to perform procedures he deems to be morally or ethically objectionable.

If I want a certain procedure and my physician does not wish to perform that procedure, I am free to find myself another physician who will perform the procedure I request.

If the physician is the employee of a hospital or group, his employers have the right to establish which procedures he must perform as an employee. If he does not wish to perform one of those required procedures, he is free to seek employment elsewhere.

Why on earth would anyone want a bunch of politicians making decisions like this? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/socrazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/socrazy.gif" alt="" />
 

misterhat

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As a patient, I have the legal and moral right to decide which medical procedures I want or do not want for myself.

A physician in private practise has the legal and moral right not to perform procedures he deems to be morally or ethically objectionable.

If I want a certain procedure and my physician does not wish to perform that procedure, I am free to find myself another physician who will perform the procedure I request.

If the physician is the employee of a hospital or group, his employers have the right to establish which procedures he must perform as an employee. If he does not wish to perform one of those required procedures, he is free to seek employment elsewhere.

Why on earth would anyone want a bunch of politicians making decisions like this? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/socrazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/socrazy.gif" alt="" />
Exactly. Especially in a life threatening situation where all options need to be on the table immediately. Many serious ailments don't afford you the time to go out and find a new doctor who will give you legal alternatives if your doctor were to hold back the options they deem unethical. If anything a private physician should by law be required to tell you about the procedure or treatment they deem unethical and recommend that if you choose to pursue it you find another doctor. If they hold back options from you and don't present them I believe as a patient that'd be grounds for a lawsuit. Especially if your life is in jeopardy. Moral of the story, don't go to Christian doctors. Stick to jews and indians.

Apparently the moral of this story is that MD's should be forced to do what the government tells them to regardless of their moral, medical or religious beliefs.


Many of you are totalitarian A-holes and dont even know it.

Pathetic.
Doctors should be required to provide all pertinent legal options to a patient. I'm putting my life in a doctor's hands. I want to know that he'll do everything legally possible for my well-being or the well-being of those I love. If he's putting his morals before my health he's fired.
You SHOULD be able to to fire your Doc if his morals prevent you from getting what you need or want from him.

Your Doc has NO obligation to violate his own morals when treating his patients.

If his patients feel that they're not getting the results that they should be because of his religious beliefs or that maybe he's just plain incompetent then his patients SHOULD have the RIGHT to see someone else!

BTW, you will not have the right to fire a Doc that you dont like for what ever reason, religious or otherwise if medecine becomes socialized in the US.


Something to think about
the problem with your analysis is that health care is not a free market in many ways. one big one is that the barrier to entry is (for very good reasons) very, very high. in certain cases one doctor's denial of service is a wholesale denial of treatment.

and this rule applies to other people, not just doctors. what will walgreens do when this rule change comes into effect. will they be able to fire a pharmacist who refuses to fill certain prescriptions on moral grounds, like a scientologist who refuses to fill your prozac?
 

elcalvo

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It appears that your criterion for determining what procedures a doctor must perform is anything the government has not made illegal. Have you thought through the implications of this position?

If a mother brings her 10 year old daughter to the doctor and requests that he perform the "female circumcision" procedure, aka, genital mutilation, should he be required to do it?

I don't know if there is a specific law against it in the US, but it is regularly done in some countries. Should the doctors in those countries be required to perform the procedure because their government has not made it illegal?

How about a mother who brings her skinny 14 year old daughter to the plastic surgeon and requests double D implants so the boys will like her? It is legal. Should the surgeon be required to do it?

How about a father who wants the doctor to give his average sized teenage son HGH so he can get big enough to play in the NFL? It is legal for the doctor to prescribe it. Should he be required to do it?

During WWII, the Nazi government performed horrible medical experiments on prisoners in concentration camps. What the doctors did was legal because the government said it was. Are you suggesting that it would have been wrong for them to follow their conscience and refuse to perform the procedures?
 

misterhat

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Well that's a big leap in logic.

If the procedure is required to save someones life I dont think a doctor should be able to morally object because of his personal beliefs. It would be pretty fucked if you got into a car accident and needed a blood transfusion and you died because your ER doc was a Jehovahs witness.

A doctor could turn down all those procedures/requests you mentioned already without any sort of consequences without this new rule. Those procedures/prescriptions can hurt the patient, not help them.

If a doc has a moral objection to abortion, that is fine, and he can refuse to perform an abortion already without any sort of consequence. The specific part about thsi rule that I disagree wrt doctors is that they are allowed to withold information about viable and commonly accepted procedures/treatments.

To be honest, I feel the biggest problem with this rule (in spite of the title) will be with health care workers who arnt doctors like pharmacists. There are a lot of fringe beliefs out there, and I don't think the government should be in the business of protecting them AT THE EXPENSE OF EVERYONE ELSE'S HEALTH CARE. They can have their beliefs, but the moment they harm someone else that is wrong.

Like I said in the begining, if you have a personal problem with the meat business, don't become a butcher. If you have a big problem with birth control, you probably shouldnt become a pharmacist.
 

elcalvo

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I don't see any leap of logic at all in my post. Any medical procedure can have side effects and be potentially harmful to a patient.

Why is it acceptable for a medical professional to refuse to carry out the procedures in the hypotheticals I cited, but not in other instances so far discussed in this thread?

What is your basis for distinguishing between which medical procedures are obligatory for a doctor or other medical professional to perform and those that he can refuse?
 

misterhat

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the article specifically focused on expanding the "conscious clause" to other health care workers. the only place i ever mentioned doctors was in the title. you can't attribute something someone else said to me.

the established concepts of "medican necessity" and "standards of care" do an excellent job at determining which procedures a doctor can refuse, and which treatments a doctor can/should perform for a specific illness.

your examples are bad because they are nowhere near what is considered standard care.
 

elcalvo

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You must admit that your title indicating that it would be a violation of the hippocratic oath for a Doctor to refuse to perform a procedure due to moral objections did paint with a pretty broad brush.

Many of the procedures discussed on the thread are procedures that would in fact have been viewed as violations of the hippocratic oath not that many years ago and would most likely have caused a doctor or other health care worker to lose their license if they were involved in them.

So the concepts of "medical necessity" and "standards of care" seem to be quite fluid, not in the scientific sense, as one would recognise the need for change as medicine advances, but in the moral sense.

And who or what determines what the "standards of care" are? Is it the frequency with which certain procedures are performed? Is there a written list established by someone?

Are you suggesting that if a certain minimum number of plastic surgeons began doing breast augmentation surgery on 14 year old girls it would become the "standard of care" and a plastic surgeon would not be allowed to refuse to perform the procedure?

Personally, I expect my doctor to respect my decisions with regard to health care and I likewise respect his.

I had my physical yesterday and was joking with my Doc about the picture of the 70 year old who looks like Arnold Schwartzneggar in his prime. My doctor said he would never prescribe those hormones for that. Should I bring charges against him if I decide some day I want to juice up?

I once had a doctor who would try to help his patients to quit smoking. If they didn't want to quit, he told them to find another doctor. He said he didn't want to waste his time treating people who didn't care about their own health.

The question thus remains, who decides which procedures can be refused on moral grounds and which cannot?
 

misterhat

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You must admit that your title indicating that it would be a violation of the hippocratic oath for a Doctor to refuse to perform a procedure due to moral objections did paint with a pretty broad brush.

Many of the procedures discussed on the thread are procedures that would in fact have been viewed as violations of the hippocratic oath not that many years ago and would most likely have caused a doctor or other health care worker to lose their license if they were involved in them.

So the concepts of "medical necessity" and "standards of care" seem to be quite fluid, not in the scientific sense, as one would recognise the need for change as medicine advances, but in the moral sense.

And who or what determines what the "standards of care" are? Is it the frequency with which certain procedures are performed? Is there a written list established by someone?

Are you suggesting that if a certain minimum number of plastic surgeons began doing breast augmentation surgery on 14 year old girls it would become the "standard of care" and a plastic surgeon would not be allowed to refuse to perform the procedure?

Personally, I expect my doctor to respect my decisions with regard to health care and I likewise respect his.

I had my physical yesterday and was joking with my Doc about the picture of the 70 year old who looks like Arnold Schwartzneggar in his prime. My doctor said he would never prescribe those hormones for that. Should I bring charges against him if I decide some day I want to juice up?

I once had a doctor who would try to help his patients to quit smoking. If they didn't want to quit, he told them to find another doctor. He said he didn't want to waste his time treating people who didn't care about their own health.

The question thus remains, who decides which procedures can be refused on moral grounds and which cannot?
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

thanks for the laugh. i'm going to be doing more important things now.

oh yeah, and you might want to look up "standards of care" again. that would answer a good number of your questions. i just don't have the time to go in and point out each of your misconceptions.
 

elcalvo

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So it seems that pretty much everyone agrees that there are some medical procedures that a health care worker should refuse to perform on moral grounds.

The question thus remains; Who decides which procedures a doctor must perform or inform a patient about?

What I seem to be hearing is that some people think that they should be able to substitute their judgement as to what is moral or inmoral for the judgement of the health care professional who actually has to take the action.
 

elcalvo

Michael Peterson status
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Chuck, your example of Michael Jackson is an excellent one. Here is an adult male, very wealthy and successful, who wanted some surgical procedures performed. While viewed cumulatively, most would agree that what he had done was excessive, but I would guess that each individual procedure, in itself, was something that was considered part of the "normal standard of care".

Would a plastic surgeon have the right to refuse any of these procedures based on his own judgement that they were excessive?

If there was some new and improved skin whitening procedure, would the plastic surgeon be required to inform MJ of that procedure, even if he did not want to perform the procedure?

The question I raised was one of basic principle that would apply to MJ's surgeries, or any medical procedure.

Who decides which procedures a medical professional cannot refuse to perform or inform a patient about?
 

VaB

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I'm procrastinating so I'll chime in....

For people with serious conditions that need intervention, be it, spinal cord problem, terminal cancer, lifesaving procedure. They should go to a specialist and he/she should offer up all current potential therapies. Where it becomes difficult is in fringe therapies. Cutting edge, and experimental stuff. The first rule of medicine is "above all else, do no harm" and you can really hurt people with some of this stuff. Kill them fast or make them worse off then they are. And it is their choice if they want to take the risk but a doctor can disagree with a patient and say the risk is too high. I'm not willing to do that because it is my responsiblity to act with your best interest in mind and I think this is a grave mistake. Is the mistake is not SO grave, you can always document the risks and benefits blah blah blah or refer to the pt to someone who will do it.

Chuck- I understand that it's your family/self and you want to tell the doc what treatment you want but it is the responsibility of the doc to act in your best interest and to do no harm, not necessarily agree with you. A reasonable person would offer alternatives or referrals.