Best strength training routine? Thoughts?

Autoprax

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I didn't sat that.

I said I disagreed about the bench press.

That was all.

The question I had was who can teach an overall strength program tailor made for me.
I think a lot of the learning is in the doing.

Use good form and don't go too heavy.

I would try to find the minimum effective dose.

It's pretty simple. What Doug said and if don't like to bench don't bench.

OVer head pressing will work.
 

VonMeister

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I think a lot of the learning is in the doing.

Use good form and don't go too heavy.

I would try to find the minimum effective dose.

It's pretty simple. What Doug said and if don't like to bench don't bench.

OVer head pressing will work.
I don't care what he does....apparently he's already an expert.
 

VonMeister

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Dips are the squat for the upper body.

The heavy weight is going to simulate growth all over
The problem with dips is they are so arm dependent that the smaller muscles in the arm reduce the amount of stress you accumulate in the body musculature. I've been doing tempo dips for tricep work though and Ive seen the difference in my bench...not in the numbers but moreso in form...much less bar drift in the later reps. The benchpress is almost the opposite, using the larger muscles of the chest, with assistance from the shoulders, hips and thighs and the isometric work through out the back. When I'm training a heavy cycle of the belted bench press I feel as much fatigue in my lats, spinal erectors and glutes as I do in my triceps due to the isometric hold and inner abdominal pressure required to complete the lift.
 

VonMeister

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I'm no more wrong than your idea the bench press strengthens the rotator cuff muscles.
First....you dont have to put words in my mouth. I'm perfectly capable of saying what I feel and mean. Second, during the bench press the supraspinatus, infraspinatus, teres minor and Subscapularis are all engaged to provide stability in the glenohumeral joint. If they weren't you would dislocate your shoulder under a surprisingly light load.
 

casa_mugrienta

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First....you dont have to put words in my mouth. I'm perfectly capable of saying what I feel and mean. Second, during the bench press the supraspinatus, infraspinatus, teres minor and Subscapularis are all engaged to provide stability in the glenohumeral joint. If they weren't you would dislocate your shoulder under a surprisingly light load.
You are absolutely correct.
 

VonMeister

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stick with the squat, deadlift, and ohp. one of our coaches has shoulder issues and doesn't bench but set the national record for squat and deadlift.
I will say this. Bench pressing without the overhead press....or some other method of training the shoulders in a complimentary way is a ticket to shoulder issues....not from an imaginary strength caused posture disorder but from stress on the joint itself during the bench press. For someone who has healthy shoulders, there is no reason not to bench press because the value of this movement to "whole body strong" can't easily be replicated. The overhead press develops the muscles of the shoulder and specifically the deltoids and traps in a way which the bench press does not. The OHP is my favorite lift.
 
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casa_mugrienta

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Perfect. Can we agree that if these same muscles are engaged during the bench press...albeit isometrically, they are still receiving training stress and a strength adaptation will occur?
Absolutely.

But I think when working towards significant gains the line of what those tiny muscles are able to bear is easily crossed.

It's a fine line and will be highly dependent on a variety of factors relating to the individual, especially if the rotator cuffs are already under a high degree of stress from other activity.

Especially in what is a really precarious position for the shoulders.

Considering a significant amount people injure their shoulders bench pressing it's pretty clear there's some nuance to this IMHO.
 

VonMeister

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Absolutely.

But I think when working towards significant gains the line of what those tiny muscles are able to bear is easily crossed.

It's a fine line and will be highly dependent on a variety of factors relating to the individual, especially if the rotator cuffs are already under a high degree of stress from other activity.

Especially in what is a really precarious position for the shoulders.

Considering a significant amount people injure their shoulders bench pressing it's pretty clear there's some nuance to this IMHO.
Most people don't know how to bench press correctly or what the bench press even is. There is nothing dangerous about the bench press. Issues can arise when overloading the shoulder while benching weight that isn't appropriate. There is no utility in PR or ER lifting. Go to any commercial gym though and all you here is guys maxing out not he bench or having their buddies help them keep the bar moving after they've reached failure. Thats how you screw a shoulder up. We don't work out, we train. Training uses the minimum appropriate amount of stress to drive a strength adaption. We meter this with external resistance and volume mixed with intelligent programming. There's nothing random going on.
 
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grapedrink

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Considering a significant amount people injure their shoulders bench pressing it's pretty clear there's some nuance to this IMHO.
Link? Anecdotally I can’t think of anyone, and I’ve known more non weight lifters who complain of rotator cuff issues.

What you don’t see are the number of people who don’t need to go to the doctor for joint pain and injured because they’re consistent with their strength training routines.
.
 

VonMeister

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Link? Anecdotally I can’t think of anyone, and I’ve known more non weight lifters who complain of rotator cuff issues.

What you don’t see are the number of people who don’t need to go to the doctor for joint pain and injured because they’re consistent with their strength training routines.
.
That's a great point. It's like a hospital mortician claiming that 100% of people in car accidents die because all he sees is dead people from car accidents.
 

Autoprax

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I will say this. Bench pressing without the overhead press....or some other method of training the shoulders in a complimentary way is a ticket to shoulder issues....not from an imaginary strength caused posture disorder but from stress on the joint itself during the bench press. For someone who has healthy shoulders, there is no reason not to bench press because the value of this movement to "whole body strong" can't easily be replicated. The overhead press develops the muscles of the shoulder and specifically the deltoids and traps in a way which the bench press does not. The OHP is my favorite lift.
I think OHP helps paddling too.

Over head holds too.
 

LifeOnMars

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This is one of my favorite things at the gym currently using 35 and 45 pound plates. I go all the way down on each rep. I feel that the hand position holding a plate is easier on the joints than using a bar.

better off using dumbells IMO, looks like more of a tricep exercise. surely even a girly man like you would be using at least 30lbs in each hand
 

casa_mugrienta

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That's a great point. It's like a hospital mortician claiming that 100% of people in car accidents die because all he sees is dead people from car accidents.
No, people study this stuff.

Chronic injuries to the capsulolabral complex of the shoulder can plague any overhead athlete, including weightlifters. Researchers have found that 36% of injuries in the weightlifting population occur at the shoulder complex.8, 26

Most authors agree that chronic repetitive loading of the shoulder complex leads to capsular strain, occult instability, and persistent pain. Upper extremity resistance training exercises place emphasis on large muscle groups to create strength and hypertrophy while neglecting smaller muscles responsible for upper extremity joint stabilization. Specifically, exercises that emphasize larger muscle groups may create an imbalance of the internal versus external rotator cuff musculature, rotator cuff-deltoid force couple, and periscapular musculature. These imbalances have been associated with shoulder injury in various investigations.27, 28, 29 The combination of repetitive loading, unfavorable positioning, and biased exercise selection creates joint and muscle imbalances that increase the strength trainer’s risk of labral tears, labro-capsular junction dysfunction, and shoulder instability, which can precipitate RTC disease.8, 30, 31

Given the propensity for shoulder dysfunction in weightlifters, it is paramount that participants understand the risks that certain exercises pose and the modifications that can be made to prevent injury. While chronic shoulder problems are a common affliction of weightlifters, the mainstay of treatment is modification of the training regimen and conservative treatment with symptomatic management and guided physical therapy. Avoidance of high-risk exercises and strengthening of shoulder stabilizers obviates the need for surgical intervention in the vast majority of cases.

Bench pressers may be predisposed to rotator cuff tears because of the unfavorable position of the rotator cuff during lifting and the pursuit of higher one-repetition maximum lifts. Furthermore, there is a rapid alternation between eccentric and concentric muscle contraction with this motion.32 One study stated that during maximal bench press, repetitive forces lead to eventual avulsion of the posterior scapular periosteum which may necessitate posterior labral repair to resume pain-free weightlifting.33 Bilateral anterior glenohumeral dislocations have been reported as a result of bench-pressing.34, 35