Berkeley city council wants to prohibit police from making traffic stops.

manbearpig

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It never matters who the crook is or why they're doing the crime. The cop's job is to stop that person from continuing to hurt other people or otherwise offend, even if only temporarily. And to do so promptly and efficiently so they can move on to the next call for service involving another asshole who is committing offenses for it-doesn't-matter-why.

If I get a call to handle the meth head who's accosting people at the local stop-n-rob my job is to handle it. IDGAF if the reason they're out of control is because they were raised by a single mom or their shthead 1st grade teacher demanded they be put on Ritalin or they're angry at Orangemanbad. None of that matters in that moment. The job at hand is to bring the meth head under control so as to stop them from committing more offenses.

The social workers can come in later and waste the next 18 months of their lives trying (in vain) to solve whatever malfunctions that offender had going which made them a problem for public order. That isn't the cop's job.
Because knowing as little as possible about the law creates quite a few more crooks doesn’t it?

You’re the one who specifically said that officers only need to know and should only know just enough of the law they are supposed to uphold. The bare minimum.

Yet here we are, leading the world in wrongful convictions thanks to such a low bar.

You’re just here to defend the failed status quo. It’s weird.
 
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the janitor

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"Two officers were shot in the incident which began Monday night with Bothell police attempting to make a traffic stop, according to Aaron Snell with the Snohomish County Multiple Agency Response Team.

CNN affiliate KOMO reported that the suspect fled from the officers before striking a man on a scooter and crashing his vehicle. Gunfire was exchanged and the suspect fled on foot, KOMO reported."

 

GDaddy

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Because knowing as little as possible about the law creates quite a few more crooks doesn’t it?

You’re the one who specifically said that officers only need to know and should only know just enough of the law they are supposed to uphold. The bare minimum.

Yet here we are, leading the world in wrongful convictions thanks to such a low bar.

You’re just here to defend the failed status quo. It’s weird.
I never said that they "should" only know the minimum, so you can retract that untruth. What I did say is that it only takes a certain level of understanding of the law to perform that role. Cops need to be capable of identifying and articulating in their reports how this individual's actions met each element of the offense for which they are being arrested. The cops don't need to be able to cite case law or court precedents for that. That's what the lawyers are for.

As for the value of cops being embedded in the community, that's how you end up with more people getting off (or getting penalized) for who they are instead of what they did. It's the exact opposite of detached, impartial and objective.

How many people complain about how small town cops treat locals better than outsiders? Think about it: Do you really want Joe Shthead to be left alone because he's some councilman's nephew? Or is it perhaps more likely to result in equal enforcement if/when the cops don't even recognize the city council members on sight when they stop one for a DUI?

In my day job I am not allowed to perform an assignment when I have a personal relationship with one of the principals because of the possibility that my objectivity and impartiality could be compromised or could be construed by others to be compromised by association even when I'm doing everything else right.
 
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GDaddy

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Perhaps one of you could give me an example where knowing why a shthead is being a shthead would help lead to a more fair outcome for the people who called the cops on that shthead.

Come to think of it, why do you even call the cops on a disturbance that you are perfectly capable of handling on your own, if not to avoid the personal accountability which ensues when you knock on the door and politely ask them to tone it down? People usually do that because they know they have to continue to live next door to that neighbor. And because sending an uninvolved 3rd party to remediate the situation enables them AND their neighbor to continue on without further hassle.

That's one reason I never even told my neighbors that I was a cop. I didn't want that to factor into any of my interactions with them unless there was actually an emergency that couldn't wait.

It's quite awkward to arrest a guy for DUI one day and then run into them a couple days later while off duty because they work as a checker at the drugstore you just popped into. It's humiliating for them and for the cop even though the cop didn't do anything wrong.
 
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manbearpig

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There’s absolutely nothing to retract. You specifically said that they needed to know just enough in response to my suggestion that LEO’s should undergo a criminal justice education as a requirement due to how absurdly little many know about the actual law they are supposed to uphold.

And you’re saying it again

We are the leader in wrongful convictions. Let that sink in.
 

GDaddy

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Think, McFly.

"Wrongful convictions" don't occur because the cops don't understand the law. As a matter of fact, convictions occur in a court, in front of a judge and are subject to being argued by opposing legal counsel. Cops don't convict anyone.

We couldn't even book a suspect into the County Jail without our booking report being reviewed by the Jail staff. Those reports include a summary (written by the booking officer) of the investigation citing the alleged facts which meet each element of the offense for which that individual was being booked. If a cop's report summary didn't meet all of those elements for that offense the jail wouldn't accept the booking because they didn't want the liability.

I'll bet you didn't know that, did you?

After booking, each arrest report is reviewed by the DA before they decide which cases to to prosecute and which to drop. So simply being arrested never automaticall leads to a prosecution, let alone a conviction.

Now the cops can and do make mistakes with the facts of the event or tell untruths about those facts, which when being relied upon in court can lead to wrongful convictions, but that has nothing to do with what the cops do or don't understand about the law. Those factual errors and omissions have other, more serious causes.
 
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grapedrink

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Think, McFly.

"Wrongful convictions" don't occur because the cops don't understand the law. As a matter of fact, convictions occur in a court, in front of a judge and are subject to being argued by opposing legal counsel. Cops don't convict anyone.

We couldn't even book a suspect into the County Jail without our booking report being reviewed by the Jail staff. Those reports include a summary (written by the booking officer) of the investigation citing the alleged facts which meet each element of the offense for which that individual was being booked. If a cop's report summary didn't meet all of those elements for that offense the jail wouldn't accept the booking because they didn't want the liability.

I'll bet you didn't know that, did you?

After booking, each arrest report is reviewed by the DA before they decide which cases to to prosecute and which to drop. So simply being arrested never automaticall leads to a prosecution, let alone a conviction.

Now the cops can and do make mistakes with the facts of the event or tell untruths about those facts, which when being relied upon in court can lead to wrongful convictions, but that has nothing to do with what the cops do or don't understand about the law. Those factual errors and omissions have other, more serious causes.
Not sure how relevant this is in the big picture, although anecdotally, nearly every police report for everyone I know who has been arrested had blatant lies and exaggerations by the arresting officer. Just sayin'
 

Random Guy

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Perhaps one of you could give me an example where knowing why a shthead is being a shthead would help lead to a more fair outcome for the people who called the cops on that shthead.

Come to think of it, why do you even call the cops on a disturbance that you are perfectly capable of handling on your own, if not to avoid the personal accountability which ensues when you knock on the door and politely ask them to tone it down? People usually do that because they know they have to continue to live next door to that neighbor. And because sending an uninvolved 3rd party to remediate the situation enables them AND their neighbor to continue on without further hassle.

That's one reason I never even told my neighbors that I was a cop. I didn't want that to factor into any of my interactions with them unless there was actually an emergency that couldn't wait.

It's quite awkward to arrest a guy for DUI one day and then run into them a couple days later while off duty because they work as a checker at the drugstore you just popped into. It's humiliating for them and for the cop even though the cop didn't do anything wrong.
Wow, never told your neighbors?
I get what your saying about why, but that’s interesting and possibly isolating

As far as running into a perp (they still say that), in your off time, I’d think it could be strange in a lineup (surf not perp), but partly because I don’t know a lot of cops who surf or surfers who are cops
 

GDaddy

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Wow, never told your neighbors?
I get what your saying about why, but that’s interesting and possibly isolating
I wouldn't lie about if if they asked but most of them never asked so that made it easy. I didn't take my .45 home unless I was headed to the range the next day because I had little boys at home who were experts at defeating the best laid plans of mice and men. And because I was never concerned about home defense.
 
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Random Guy

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I wouldn't lie about if if they asked but most of them never asked so that made it easy. I didn't take my .45 home unless I was headed to the range the next day because I had little boys at home who were experts at defeating the best laid plans of mice and men. And because I was never concerned about home defense.
I find so much of what you say very interesting
Keep on posting
 
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GDaddy

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If so, then that makes your's the minority opinion around here.

I'ma let you in on my secret. What I liked most about the job was answering calls for service. Sometimes it was someone who was struggling with their environment or they've had an accident. Sometimes it was because somebody is causing problems for someone else and they want help. And sometimes that someone was the caller, not the person they were calling on.

Problem solving, albeit with distinct limitations. Plus, cops get to be where the action is, so that can be pretty interesting. Oh, and the lying people do to cops as a means of getting out of their predicament or to hassle someone else. Pressing them on their lying was always fun, too.
 

laidback

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Why am I a dick and you’re not?

you’re constantly defending racist and murderers and justifying police brutality. Get fucked.
Not for police brutality but for getting the criminals before they commit the crime....I don't care what color or race.....get the bad guys
 

manbearpig

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Think, McFly.

"Wrongful convictions" don't occur because the cops don't understand the law. As a matter of fact, convictions occur in a court, in front of a judge and are subject to being argued by opposing legal counsel. Cops don't convict anyone.

We couldn't even book a suspect into the County Jail without our booking report being reviewed by the Jail staff. Those reports include a summary (written by the booking officer) of the investigation citing the alleged facts which meet each element of the offense for which that individual was being booked. If a cop's report summary didn't meet all of those elements for that offense the jail wouldn't accept the booking because they didn't want the liability.

I'll bet you didn't know that, did you?

After booking, each arrest report is reviewed by the DA before they decide which cases to to prosecute and which to drop. So simply being arrested never automaticall leads to a prosecution, let alone a conviction.

Now the cops can and do make mistakes with the facts of the event or tell untruths about those facts, which when being relied upon in court can lead to wrongful convictions, but that has nothing to do with what the cops do or don't understand about the law. Those factual errors and omissions have other, more serious causes.
So you think individuals just walk into the court room and say “charge me for this crime!” :ROFLMAO: The root of the problem is law enforcement don’t know even close to enough of the law they are supposed to uphold. They are the root of the problem to the vast majority of wrongful convictions. Because if they knew anything the majority wouldn’t be wrongfully convicted. End of story.

Here’s some food for thought. I hold a handful of licenses and certifications for my profession. All require continuing education to hold and a few required a degree. This is all required by law. In the eyes of the law I am held to a higher standard than law enforcement.

I’m a fucking arborist. My job is inconsequential compared to maintaining law and order. Yet the law doesn’t see it that way.
 

GDaddy

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Cops have annual or bi-annual CE requirements, too.

You're complaining about wrongful convictions being the result of cops not understanding the law. Walk me through your reasoning on that one:

Let's say the cop does make a mistake in identifying all the elements of the offense they have alleged when they arrested someone. How does that turn into a wrongful conviction?

The cop's field supervisor reviews all the reports the cops they supervise write. If there's a mistake or an omission or room for improvement the supervisor kicks it back to the cop.

The jails (at least in this region) review the booking reports to ensure they don't book someone for an arrest where the elements of the offense have not been articulated.

The screening deputy DA does a triage on all booking reports the next day to ensure they hit all the high points in their summary.

The LE agency's detectives and court liaison go through all the crime reports and arrest reports prior to sending them to the DA office, which then reviews all that material prior to deciding whether or not to prosecute.

There's a preliminary hearing where the judge is reviewing that material to see if there's cause to bind the arrestee for trial. It is at this point that the defendant's counsel gets to argue if they think there are missing elements in the offenses being alleged. The judge's decision is made by...the judge.

If there's a plea bargain then this is where that occurs. If it goes to trial then both attys go for what they know and the judge or jury making the decision to convict get their say.

So why don't you point out exactly where in that process you think an uninformed cop's error can get past everyone else who's looking at the case prior to the defendant's conviction?

Now mind you, I'm not talking about cases where the cops are making errors about the facts of the case itself - what the defendant allegedly did or didn't do, or what the witnesses or evidence did or didn't say. THOSE errors have nothing to do with whether or not the cop understood the sections of the law they are alleging. If I lie in an arrest report about what the arrestee did or what a witness said that's not the result of me not understanding the section of law that I cited when I arrested him/her/they; that's the result of me telling a lie or making an error with the facts.

Surely you can see the distinction here?
 

manbearpig

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It turns into a wrongful conviction because that’s where the alleged crime was processed and laid out from the onset. Without that initial contact and mistake it never would happen. There’s plenty of examples of this and plenty of examples of law enforcement getting absolutely schooled on simple law.

if the current system you just laid out actually worked as it should we wouldn’t be where we are in terms of wrongful convictions. Imagine how much simpler that chain would be if the law was known from the initial point, or potential point, of contact. But that requires a little more than the bare minimum.
 

mundus

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Not sure how relevant this is in the big picture, although anecdotally, nearly every police report for everyone I know who has been arrested had blatant lies and exaggerations by the arresting officer. Just sayin'
Nobody lies like a cop, and somehow they never get held accountable for testilying.
 

GDaddy

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It turns into a wrongful conviction because that’s where the alleged crime was processed and laid out from the onset. Without that initial contact and mistake it never would happen. There’s plenty of examples of this and plenty of examples of law enforcement getting absolutely schooled on simple law.

if the current system you just laid out actually worked as it should we wouldn’t be where we are in terms of wrongful convictions. Imagine how much simpler that chain would be if the law was known from the initial point, or potential point, of contact. But that requires a little more than the bare minimum.
Again, show me how you think the cop's incompetency with what the law is/isn't gets past EVERYONE else in the process including the attys and the judges.

You can't.

Wrongful convictions occur as the result of the cops making mistakes in their investigations. Saying the individual did or said something they didn't do. Screwing up how the evidence is collected or processed, screwing up on what the witnesses said or not following up on all the leads. The rush to judgement. Etc., etc.

None of those have anything to do with the cop understanding that the elements of an allegation of murder include an individual intending to commit a crime AND doing something to cause the death of another. Or the elements of a burglary include the entry into the building with the intent to commit a crime and subsequently stealing something. These are not difficult applications to learn.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm interpreting your comments to mean the cops are screwing up their investigation and evidence collection and reporting processes. With which I agree. But that is addressed in the training for investigation, interviewing, evidence collection and report writing. Not amping up their education on what the law is/isn't. I mean, turning every cop into a 3rd year law student won't hurt anyone, but it also won't impact any of those other processes that they're screwing up.
 
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