Auto Industry Bailout

afoaf

Duke status
Jun 25, 2008
49,204
22,752
113
here's the problem...the american made cars ARE MADE BY
SHMOES.

they are OVERPAID SHMOES.

you don't pay someone $80 to do a repetitive assembly line
job that you could train a lobotomy patient to do in a
couple of days...never mind the explosion of assembly line
automation; most of the critical stuff is handled by
bots now.

are you implying that because Toyota or VW's labor costs
are lower that somehow their cars are not as safe or as
well built?! I hope not...because you'd be incredibly wrong.
 

LAisntsobad

Kelly Slater status
Oct 21, 2003
9,299
0
0
my next one was going to be polock's, but we see how your mind works, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So now that you have demoralized and defeated us, will you please start opening more trade schools so we can work in your factories. I guess that may be the change that Obama's been talking about.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />
I'm glad you're able to decipher my psyche from a few internet posts.

I stand by my statement that people are quicker to offend Asians compared to African Americans. Doesn't bother me personally, but nonetheless it is a fact.
maybe you'd understand the plight of black people if your gook ass put down that math book and read a little history.


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/computer.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I'm hoping that was sarcasm but if not...are you f*cking serious? Really?

Someone says Jap. I posted the fact that Asians are fair game yet most people are too much of a pussy to say anything about blacks even on the internet (yours truly included).

In your mind that means I don't understand the plight of black people. Wow. That's DiscoTex level retarded logic right there <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/socrazy.gif" alt="" />




Back to the bailout. I agree with what Afoaf said. Nothing wrong with paying skilled workers but they're not that skilled and their pay is simply not on a reasonable and competive pay scale. Yes they do important jobs, but a lot of the work now is automated and they have poke-yokes and a billion sensors to cover for human error. But I also believe upper management shares the other half of the blame.
 

HopperNash

Billy Hamilton status
Apr 1, 2008
1,451
1
0
Here's a different standpoint on this issue. I work for a newspaper. Earlier in the year we lost two longtime area Chrysler dealerships due to the downturn in the economy. Losing them meant losing thousands of dollars worth of advertising revenue. I heard today that we lost another big car dealership account, a GM dealership, which is also thousands of dollars worth of advertising gone. Now this dealership will probably scale back, but won't fold because they carry Toyota and all that... however, its a trickle-down effect that hits more than just the automakers.

Personally, I'd like to see them fold. I wish the banks would have folded because people need to be taught a lesson. It makes me wonder how much longer it will be before more newspapers start to fold too.

But that may not be what this argument/debate is about.
 

misterhat

Billy Hamilton status
Dec 21, 2007
1,625
69
48
my next one was going to be polock's, but we see how your mind works, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So now that you have demoralized and defeated us, will you please start opening more trade schools so we can work in your factories. I guess that may be the change that Obama's been talking about.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />
I'm glad you're able to decipher my psyche from a few internet posts.

I stand by my statement that people are quicker to offend Asians compared to African Americans. Doesn't bother me personally, but nonetheless it is a fact.
maybe you'd understand the plight of black people if your gook ass put down that math book and read a little history.


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/computer.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I'm hoping that was sarcasm but if not...are you f*cking serious? Really?

Someone says Jap. I posted the fact that Asians are fair game yet most people are too much of a pussy to say anything about blacks even on the internet (yours truly included).

In your mind that means I don't understand the plight of black people. Wow. That's DiscoTex level retarded logic right there <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/socrazy.gif" alt="" />




Back to the bailout. I agree with what Afoaf said. Nothing wrong with paying skilled workers but they're not that skilled and their pay is simply not on a reasonable and competive pay scale. Yes they do important jobs, but a lot of the work now is automated and they have poke-yokes and a billion sensors to cover for human error. But I also believe upper management shares the other half of the blame.
i thought the sarcasm was obvious. i'm editing and i apologize. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/foreheadslap.gif" alt="" />

edit: it's not letting me edit or delete. didnt think it was as offensive as it really was.
 

Surfdog

Duke status
Apr 22, 2001
21,768
1,988
113
South coast OR
Here's a different standpoint on this issue. I work for a newspaper. Earlier in the year we lost two longtime area Chrysler dealerships due to the downturn in the economy. Losing them meant losing thousands of dollars worth of advertising revenue. I heard today that we lost another big car dealership account, a GM dealership, which is also thousands of dollars worth of advertising gone. Now this dealership will probably scale back, but won't fold because they carry Toyota and all that... however, its a trickle-down effect that hits more than just the automakers.

Personally, I'd like to see them fold. I wish the banks would have folded because people need to be taught a lesson. It makes me wonder how much longer it will be before more newspapers start to fold too.

But that may not be what this argument/debate is about.
You know what's interesting about this post? In my local paper, the North County Times (San Diego). The local Big 3 dealerships must spend $1000's every week on local advertising. Honda has little to NO local dealership newspaper ads. Toyota and Nissan have some, but very little compared to the Big 3. They don't need it, because most people know they have a solid reputation and product.

The Big 3 have reaped what they've sown, and it's time to pay the piper (how's that for a cliche string?).

They pay rediculous salaries to tighten a few bolts, and run some robots. The Unions have overweighted the retirement/benefit packages so huge, they can't afford them anymore. They were bleeding money profusely, even before this recent market downturn. Overall, very poor management for decades now. I'm surprised they've lasted this long. The only thing thats kept them afloat the last few years, which is now crashing down on them, is the former popularity of the SUV. They had decent margins on those hogs. The bigger trucks (1500's, 2500's, 3500's) are their only product worth buying, at this point. Their cars don't last for s**t, even though they have improved somewhat the last few years.

Recent radio commercials for Mechanics Insurance says a lot about the Big 3 product quality and cost to fix stuff the Japanese cars rarely need, even after 150K-200K miles. Why can't the Big 3 build a dependable car like that? You're REALLY lucky to get 80k-100k on a Big 3 car before it turns into a money pit.

If the Big 3 get a $25 billion bailout, I can think of lots of other industries battling just as tough economics that deserve it MUCH more than they do.
 

elcalvo

Michael Peterson status
Mar 16, 2004
3,314
436
83
NE
Big Three CEOs Flew Private Jets to Plead for Public Funds

Auto Industry Close to Bankruptcy But They Get Pricey Perk

By BRIAN ROSS and JOSEPH RHEE
November 19, 2008—


The CEOs of the big three automakers flew to the nation's capital yesterday in private luxurious jets to make their case to Washington that the auto industry is running out of cash and needs $25 billion in taxpayer money to avoid bankruptcy.


The CEOs of GM, Ford and Chrysler may have told Congress that they will likely go out of business without a bailout yet that has not stopped them from traveling in style, not even First Class is good enough.


All three CEOs - Rick Wagoner of GM, Alan Mulally of Ford, and Robert Nardelli of Chrysler - exercised their perks Tuesday by flying in corporate jets to DC. Wagoner flew in GM's $36 million luxury aircraft to tell members of Congress that the company is burning through cash, asking for $10-12 billion for GM alone.


"We want to continue the vital role we've played for Americans for the past 100 years, but we can't do it alone," Wagoner told the Senate Banking Committee.


While Wagoner testified, his G4 private jet was parked at Dulles airport. It is one of eight luxury jets in the GM fleet that continues to ferry executives around the world despite the company's dire financial straits.


"This is a slap in the face of taxpayers," said Tom Schatz, President of Citizens Against Government Waste. "To come to Washington on a corporate jet, and asking for a hand out is outrageous."


Wagoner's private jet trip to Washington cost his ailing company an estimated $20,000 roundtrip. In comparison, seats on Northwest Airlines flight 2364 from Detroit to Washington were going online for $288 coach and $837 first class.


After the hearing, Wagoner declined to answer questions about his travel.


Ford CEO Mulally's corporate jet is a perk included for both he and his wife as part of his employment contract along with a $28 million salary last year. Mulally actually lives in Seattle, not Detroit. The company jet takes him home and back on weekends.



Plants Closed, Company Jets Stay
Mulally made his case Tuesday before the committee saying he's cut expenses, laid-off workers and closed 17 plants.


"We have also reduced our work force by 51,000 employees in the past three years," Mulally said.


Yet Ford continues to operate a fleet of eight private jets for its executives. Just Tuesday, one jet was taking Ford brass to Los Angeles, another on a trip to Nebraska, and of course Mulally needed to fly to Washington to testify. He did not address questions following the hearing.


"Now's not the time to do that sort of thing," said John McElroy of the television program "Autoline Detroit."


"Now's the time to be humble and show that you're sharing equally in the sacrifice," McElroy said.


GM and Ford say that it is a corporate decision to have their CEOs fly on private jets and that is non-negotiable, even as the companies say they are running out of cash.


Private jet travel is perhaps the greatest perk of all for CEOs, who say it allows them to travel more efficiently and safely, even in a recession.


AIG, despite the $150 billion bailout, still operates a fleet of corporate jets. The company says it has put two out of its seven jets up for sale and is reviewing the use of others. Though there are no such plans by GM or Ford.


"It appears that the senior management of the automakers simply don't get it," said Schatz.



Copyright © 2008 ABC News Internet Ventures
 

Aku

Nep status
Jun 21, 2005
729
0
0
"It appears that the senior management of the automakers simply don't get it,"
DUH!!!!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/trout.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drowning.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bricks.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/toilet.gif" alt="" />
 

afoaf

Duke status
Jun 25, 2008
49,204
22,752
113
I hate to break it to you, but television killed the radio
star.

Papers have much larger problems than a few advertisers
pulling their contracts.

Readership is down across the board...print publications
are closing up and moving exclusively to online venues.

This trend will continue as connectivity in the home
and workplace becomes more and more prevalent.

Stay ahead of the curve and get out before the rug gets
pulled out from underneath you.
 

HopperNash

Billy Hamilton status
Apr 1, 2008
1,451
1
0
I hate to break it to you, but television killed the radio
star.

Papers have much larger problems than a few advertisers
pulling their contracts.

Readership is down across the board...print publications
are closing up and moving exclusively to online venues.

This trend will continue as connectivity in the home
and workplace becomes more and more prevalent.

Stay ahead of the curve and get out before the rug gets
pulled out from underneath you.

I've been in the newspaper industry for well over a decade now. I saw this coming a long time ago, long before the big corporate heads, who thought papers would be timeless as they've always been. Sure now they are banking on the online medium but none of these people have a clue how to take advantage of that particular medium and make real money off it. They're two steps behind the curve and that is where they will stay until papers go the way of the dinosaur.

I'm where I'm at right now because this place is soft and I can get away with an astronomical amount of time off to go surf. My time's coming though and soon enough I'll be out, laughing and pointing at the suckers floating away in life rafts, wondering where the ship went.
 

LAisntsobad

Kelly Slater status
Oct 21, 2003
9,299
0
0
my next one was going to be polock's, but we see how your mind works, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So now that you have demoralized and defeated us, will you please start opening more trade schools so we can work in your factories. I guess that may be the change that Obama's been talking about.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />
I'm glad you're able to decipher my psyche from a few internet posts.

I stand by my statement that people are quicker to offend Asians compared to African Americans. Doesn't bother me personally, but nonetheless it is a fact.
maybe you'd understand the plight of black people if your gook ass put down that math book and read a little history.


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/computer.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I'm hoping that was sarcasm but if not...are you f*cking serious? Really?

Someone says Jap. I posted the fact that Asians are fair game yet most people are too much of a pussy to say anything about blacks even on the internet (yours truly included).

In your mind that means I don't understand the plight of black people. Wow. That's DiscoTex level retarded logic right there <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/socrazy.gif" alt="" />




Back to the bailout. I agree with what Afoaf said. Nothing wrong with paying skilled workers but they're not that skilled and their pay is simply not on a reasonable and competive pay scale. Yes they do important jobs, but a lot of the work now is automated and they have poke-yokes and a billion sensors to cover for human error. But I also believe upper management shares the other half of the blame.
i thought the sarcasm was obvious. i'm editing and i apologize. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/foreheadslap.gif" alt="" />

edit: it's not letting me edit or delete. didnt think it was as offensive as it really was.
My bad. The sarcasm was pretty obvious actually, but using the 'erBB scale you never know lol.
 
Aug 24, 2008
43
0
0
I say let them fail. We can not keep driving vehicles that get horrible gas mileage. It's becoming clearer every day that we can not just consume more and more gasoline and expect for everything to be okay. the only way I would support a bailout of the "BIG 3" is demanding vehicles that get 30 plus mileage, and EXTREME research into various forms of other power for vehicles.
 

Chingaso

Billy Hamilton status
Jan 29, 2004
1,523
0
0
Ventura
if the car makers get a bail out, don't people still have to buy their cars? how will a bail out make consumers buy more?

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/foreheadslap.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/monkey.gif" alt="" />