Auto Industry Bailout

[LAisntsobad]

I'm undecided on this issue. On one hand, I say, "F-U it's your own greed and mismanagement that makes you non-competitive".

On the other hand it's not so simple because you have the union issue, not to mention the massive supply chain (think how many parts in a car and parts in those parts and so on). That's a lot of jobs lost and the country can't afford that either.

I just don't think even with a bailout they will be able to pull off a turnaround. US automakers are still a decade behind in research and quality compared to the foreign automakers.

Rock and a hard place.


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

 

[john4surf]

Ford moves all of it's auto manufacturing out of the USA leaving only trucks to be made in the US and loses its ass by the $billions. Closed up tons of USA shops and lost jobs while they were at it. Fvck 'em.

Toyota moves it's manufacturing into the USA (from Japan) and creates jobs and went into the black by $billions providing jobs by the thousands in manufacturing, sales, accessories, etc. leaving only the Land Cruiser to be made in Japan. Good on them.

Businesses fail all the time. Bailing out a failed business and failed business plans with your tax dollars is not what capitalism is all about. AMTRAK is a great example of a business that fails every year but keeps on running thanks to our tax dollars.

Take the hit now USA. Keep feeding the giants and they will just implode later.

 

[casa_mugrienta]

No more bailouts. LEARN through FAILURE.

GM has been teetering since forever. If they hadn't let quality slip, I'm doubting this would have ever happened. What kind of a dummy buys an American car these days? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

 

[toreador]

VW manufacturing in the US is looking to add over 2000 positions in '09. other auto makers in the US, like toyota, subaru, etc., while suffering from the economic downturn everyone is experiencing, are nowhere nearly as mismanaged as GM, Ford, or Chrysler/Dodge.

let them fail. why should taxpayers pay for union workers salaries and benefits which have broken the backs of the very companies that signs their paychecks? why should we reward the management that capitulated to union deals which they knew would make them fail in a competitive marketplace?

make them file for BK and re-structure, just like every other business or individual.

of course they don't want to, because then the creditors get paid before the owners, meaning the stock goes to crap, and all those executive contracts based on stock prices are worthless.

this sh!t sickens me!!!

failure is a part of the free market. you have to allow for failure to keep the market competitive and fair and healthy.

 

[LAisntsobad]

I agree with letting them fail. My concern was for the suppliers but the smart ones have already seen this coming and diversified their product line and taken the right precautions anyway. So I guess those that didn't should fail too.

All I know is it sucks to be in Michigan right now. Place is about as dismal as it gets even on a good day. IMagine right now <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/foreheadslap.gif" alt="" />

 

[SlicedFeet]

I'm totally for the bail-out for a few reasons.

1) Pensions. There are 100,000 plus Americans that busted their ass making cars over the 40 past years, who now are retired, and rely on that pension to help cover their bills. Shiit, should we just all give them a gun and say sorry, but the japs just made slicker interiors?

2) GM, Ford, commercial paper. Their debt. This is intertwined, interwoven, infused all over the US economy. This will have consequences for all of us. Yes, In BK, bonads and paper suffer too, of course not as bad as having the equity stake wiped out.

3) They are the last bastions of manufacturing in the US. One in 10 jobs is the US is related to the Automobile. I'm sick of seeing profit, the dollar, transfered overseas.

4) I think were heading to the point that "Assembled in the US" will our national moniker <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/foreheadslap.gif" alt="" />

5) There must be a condition that the unions are dissolved, they are the anti-christ in the whole situation. The foreign automakers don't have the unions to deal with in their plants in the US, or if they do, they have a minor voice. Get rid of them first, Unions are the problem.

Don't get me started on the banks, they need to be BITTTCHED slapped big time but Barney Frank(D) has sucked them all off and doesn't want to be exposed. Yep and their plenty of (R) that need to go down too. If we don't see some serious jail time for some of these execs, we are as dumb as the rest of the world thinks of us.

Support America and keep profits here.

 

[john4surf]

"3) They are the last bastions of manufacturing in the US. One in 10 jobs is the US is related to the Automobile. I'm sick of seeing profit, the dollar, transfered overseas."

I read (sorry I can't quote the source) that Ford does not make one automobile within the borders of the USA. I see your points and agree with them for the most part but I am against rebuilding the Titanic with my nations tax dollars before the repairs are included in the blue print. The $trillions in aid the USA sends around the globe each year should not include a bailout for a failed company whose primary manufacturing is done out of the country. Bring home the jobs, every job and I'll support a restructed industry that addresses the other ills you've astutely identified.

We're (you and me) on the same page, wouldn't it be nice if our 'leaders' in government and industry were?

 

[Lankameese]

5) There must be a condition that the unions are dissolved, they are the anti-christ in the whole situation. The foreign automakers don't have the unions to deal with in their plants in the US, or if they do, they have a minor voice. Get rid of them first, Unions are the problem.

+1

but dont hold your breath w Pelosi and Reid in charge with nobody to answer to but Barrack shortly

We live in a society where failure is rewarded, success is punished, everything must be fair for everyone, just not the taxpayer, and those that buy off our politicians through massive donations to their coffers are taken care of by Joe Taxpayer, nobody is held to any standard of performance or accountability because it may not be fair to do so... although this has been the case for many many years

We are a nation of whiners and p*ssies; all with our hands out and palms up wating for the next free government check or entitlement program to kick in so we dont have to pay for our gas or our mortgages, and this is considered right, good, deserved, and we are owed this becasue we are Americans.

Vets and our forefathers are rolling over in their graves or tightening the noose while kicking the chair out from under themselves

We are a nation of <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/loser.gif" alt="" />'s

I fully beleive we (the average non-enlisted citizens) would presently get our asses handed to us by any nation with any military might and balls to invade on our soil, because most would attempt to talk their way out of a gun fight... another 9/11 is being planned but they're vacationing first, no need to rush, the whole country is asleep, afraid to offend, afraid to defend, we just want to get along with everybody and live in utopia, is that too much to ask?

Good morning, Change is here.
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" />

 

[LAisntsobad]

&gt;&gt;Shiit, should we just all give them a gun and say sorry, but the japs just made slicker interiors?

LOL actually us Japs are all about continuous improvements (ie looking ahead) in all areas of business. This is why the Japs continue to pwn regardless of all the ups and downs they had over the years. This is not just for autos, wait for the Japs to be leaders in alternative energy in the coming years as well (go see who leads in rechargeable batteries and solar technology).

But I agree with you that those that busted their asses and helped the US prosper for many years shouldn't be punished. For this particular expense the govt should help by giving directly to these people, not to the automakers.

&gt;&gt;One in 10 jobs is the US is related to the Automobile. I'm sick of seeing profit, the dollar, transfered overseas.

As someone else mentioned, it's the American companies moving jobs overseas. Foreign companies are setting up shop here, providing jobs to Americans, and doing OK.

&gt;&gt;Get rid of them first, Unions are the problem.

Agree 100%.

&gt;&gt;I fully beleive we (the average non-enlisted citizens) would presently get our asses handed to us by any nation with any military might and balls to invade on our soil, because most would attempt to talk their way out of a gun fight

So would citizens of most modern civilized nations. That's why we have the military.

 

[misterhat]

First of all, I don't think the UAW is what caused GM et all to make crappy cars that no one wanted to buy. While a problem, they're not the only reason why American Auto companies are failing, and getting rid of them will not magically make all GM and Ford Autos suddenly desireable.

At the same time, an unskilled worker should not be making in excess of 70 dollars an hour plus benefits and pension, or really anywhere even near that. The unions, while originally serving a good purpose have gone MADD with mission creep.

Still, they're not even close to being the root cause of the problem. The market changed and every other auto maker saw it coming. Management at the American companies resisted and they are now getting their ass handed to them.

Overpaying their labor compounds the problem, but it is definitely not the cause.

 

[john4surf]

Seems to me Chapeter 10, 11 or 12 under the bankruptcy laws are available to the auto giants just as they are to airline and every other industry. But God forbid they go bankrupt and fail to pay their shareholders a dividend, executives their golden (fill in the blanks) under the bankruptcy laws.

 

[SlicedFeet]

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/foreheadslap.gif" alt="" /> I forgot japs can only call themselves japs, jews to only jews, and .... Damm 1950's Hollywood corrupted me. Thank God we live in the land of PC now and have no identity or manufacturing to boot. I'm so glad the rest of the world brought gentility into our lives. We needed it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Sorry about that.

Well, GM's stock price is $2.95 and Fords is $1.90. I think its save to assume that the equity holders have already been wiped out. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Lets put the final pin in and take out the pension. That'll do it.

There was an excellent article in the Wall Street J, a few weeks ago on the differences between a GM unionized plant and a Honda plant with no unions in the US. It was astounding on how the Unions made any type change impossible and created a gigantic hair ball size of red tape to get anything changed. After reading it you'll understand on how the American car industry fell, were stifled by change from the unions, and why they decided to try and get out of Dodge.

And why am I writing this, cause I think America is formally finished now.

We justed tested our October 08 lows on the stockmarket and bounced off, we will see a retracement to the 2002/2003 lows on the S&amp;P which are 750-775. Those will be broken and then we'll gap down to the 1996 lows of 609, which is a 61.8% fibonacci retracement from the 1970's.

What does this mean, that 12 years of gains in the stock market will be wiped out in the next few months. Some say we aren't even in a recession. America is stupid. We are forming a massive pennant on most stock charts. When a pennant is formed (flag) it goes to a flag post that goes straight down. From a technical analysts standpoint, were done, see you at Dow 6000. Then maybe people will admit were in a recession. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/foreheadslap.gif" alt="" /> This one is going to last a long time most likely till the baby boom generation dies off. It will then be fun to talk about how trickle down economics is a myth. Can't wait for people to ask the government for money cause no ones buying anything and they deserve their God given right as an American to have their American lifestyle. End of my I think Americans are dumb, we lost our soul, and the sky is falling rant. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/beer.gif" alt="" />

 

[LAisntsobad]

I forgot japs can only call themselves japs, jews to only jews, and .... Damm 1950's Hollywood corrupted me. Thank God we live in the land of PC now and have no identity or manufacturing to boot. I'm so glad the rest of the world brought gentility into our lives. We needed it. Sorry about that.

I am never offended at words or slurs but I find it hilarious that you would never say "n*ggers" outright on here. But Asians? Fair game <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

That's ok, all your manufacturing are belong to us.

 

[SlicedFeet]

I forgot japs can only call themselves japs, jews to only jews, and .... Damm 1950's Hollywood corrupted me. Thank God we live in the land of PC now and have no identity or manufacturing to boot. I'm so glad the rest of the world brought gentility into our lives. We needed it. Sorry about that.

I am never offended at words or slurs but I find it hilarious that you would never say "n*ggers" outright on here. But Asians? Fair game <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

That's ok, all your manufacturing are belong to us.

my next one was going to be polock's, but we see how your mind works, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So now that you have demoralized and defeated us, will you please start opening more trade schools so we can work in your factories. I guess that may be the change that Obama's been talking about.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

 

[LAisntsobad]

my next one was going to be polock's, but we see how your mind works, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So now that you have demoralized and defeated us, will you please start opening more trade schools so we can work in your factories. I guess that may be the change that Obama's been talking about.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

I'm glad you're able to decipher my psyche from a few internet posts.

I stand by my statement that people are quicker to offend Asians compared to African Americans. Doesn't bother me personally, but nonetheless it is a fact.

 

[misterhat]

my next one was going to be polock's, but we see how your mind works, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So now that you have demoralized and defeated us, will you please start opening more trade schools so we can work in your factories. I guess that may be the change that Obama's been talking about.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

I'm glad you're able to decipher my psyche from a few internet posts.

I stand by my statement that people are quicker to offend Asians compared to African Americans. Doesn't bother me personally, but nonetheless it is a fact.

maybe you'd understand the plight of black people if your gook ass put down that math book and read a little history.


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/computer.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

 

[afoaf]

we can't afford some temporary job loss but we can afford
dumping federal dollars in to a company that is an utter
failure?

I think we can more easily afford the former than the latter.

 

[john4surf]

Our democracy allows for a failing bankrupt company to reorganize under a court system. Reorganize. That means getting rid of the failed business model and management, maybe getting rid of debt. Getting out of $80/hour production line worker union contracts (I believe Toyota pays ~$40 an hour to non-union workers and is doing fine in this economy).

I am so against bailing out failures with the tax dollars I have to pay every 2 weeks.

 

[afoaf]

These companies will NEVER improve.

They will continue to scrape by with poorly designed
and manufactured product.

The big three have not been viable for DECADES.

They continually fail to capitalize on opportunity by
staying in bed with American oil interests. They've
squashed (shat) on the alternative fuel technologies
and once again the japanese and even european
manufacturers are going to eat their lunch.

they have nothing left. no innovation, no notion of
product quality and IF they get this money I imagine
there will be a whole lot of sour grapes to be had
by the consumers.

 

[gene_can_sing]

maybe you'd understand the plight of black people if your gook ass put down that math book and read a little history.


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/computer.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's because of that Math book that your auto industry is now owned by Japan. Time to take some of that Shiot out of your "Hat" and use your brain.