10 Myths About Lower Back Pain (LBP)

One-Off

Tom Curren status
Jul 28, 2005
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I enjoyed deadlifts forever. Using the hex bar to do them was awesome. Notice the past tense. The question I was asked by some lifters and PT people and my massage guy was why do you do them? While it is a functional exercise, how often do you need to lift two, three, four hundred pounds off the floor. Furthermore, as someone getting older, what is the risk to benefit ratio and how does it improve what you want to do - which i my case is basically surfing. For me, I've been able to find other exercises that work my hip hinge and legs/back while also being more geared to surfing. Just a suggestion, that's all. Think about why we do certain lifts and does it help to improve the activities you want to do. Aloha!
I do the DL to develop (or at this point maintain) posterior chain strength, in particular the erctor spinae. I do not lift really heavy.

Care to share the other exercises you do? I also do bridges, bent over rows, and use an ab roller. I should start doing mountain climbers again. I started doing pop ups recently and the (mildly) trigger my back.

I came across the "horse stance" the other day. I think that might be good. I was feeling my back the other day as I went from paddling to sitting on your board, a motion you do over and over again while surfing.
 

Mr J

Michael Peterson status
Aug 18, 2003
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... .
hands down the best tutorial I’ve seen is WaveKi’s. It shows you how to practice in slow motion on land, which was a game changer for my back. (I had to use props at first cause I lacked the flexibility). prior to that I was doing more of a burpee-style pop up, which is more jarring for me.
@slipped_disc Is it a type of chicken wing popup? That's been a game changer for me - when I had surfing lessons a few years ago my instructor got me to change my popup to chicken wing. I agree the burpee-style pop-up is a lot tougher on the back and would need to be done with careful core control on land - the other thing is that it is extremely difficult to do a burpee style popup on the floor without letting the toes touch the floor to push off - on a shortboar we can't use our toes coz our feet are hanging off the back.
 

slipped_disc

Billy Hamilton status
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@slipped_disc Is it a type of chicken wing popup? That's been a game changer for me - when I had surfing lessons a few years ago my instructor got me to change my popup to chicken wing. I agree the burpee-style pop-up is a lot tougher on the back and would need to be done with careful core control on land - the other thing is that it is extremely difficult to do a burpee style popup on the floor without letting the toes touch the floor to push off - on a shortboar we can't use our toes coz our feet are hanging off the back.
The key concept with the waveki takeoff is that you always have at least three points of contact with the board (between their hands and their feet). It results in sort of a slither-up effect, which when you watch the best duus, it’s the technique they use. I’d bet the vast majority of surfers — even the lifelong surfers — don’t get this right in the water. And even more fugg it up when they practice it on land.

at any rate, the benefitsof this tripod approach are 1) you’re more stable taking off 2) for the low back, practicing it this way (on land) creates more flexibility and fluidity in your back. It’s been a game changer for my back pain.

I’ll try to find some video. Not sure if it’s chicken-wingy or not.
 
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Goofy_Footed

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The key concept with the waveki takeoff is that you always have at least three points of contact with the board (between their hands and their feet). It results in sort of a slither-up effect, which when you watch the best duus, it’s the technique they use. I’d bet the vast majority of surfers — even the lifelong surfers — don’t get this right in the water. And even more fugg it up when they practice it on land.

at any rate, the benefitsof this tripod approach are 1) you’re more stable taking off 2) for the low back, practicing it this way (on land) creates more flexibility and fluidity in your back. It’s been a game changer for my back pain.

I’ll try to find some video. Not sure if it’s chicken-wingy or not.
Yes, please post a video if you can find one. I get the same achy back as one-off after every session even with regular exercise and stretching/light yoga before every surf.
 
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One-Off

Tom Curren status
Jul 28, 2005
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Yes, please post a video if you can find one. I get the same achy back as one-off after every session even with regular exercise and stretching/light yoga before every surf.
I'm going to pre-empt slip disc. I know nothing about wave ki and when he said 3 points I was going to quip, "Chin and two hands?" But then I remembered this video. I would say more than half of the surfers hit their back foot before the front foot. Three points? Also found the longboard pop up video.



Seems, apart from doing actual pop ups, this would be the exercise of choice-



FInally, there was this discussion on swaylocks-

 
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slipped_disc

Billy Hamilton status
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Those slow-mo videos are great. And you can see the three-points tip in effect. I still can’t figure out how to upload video, so here are some stills of the Wave Ki method.

Frame 1:
The back foot gets planted first. The three points of contact are backfoot and both hands.

Frame 2:
The front knee begins to drive into your chest. This is where your back begins to go into flexion.

AC1A2C1C-1E50-4325-8C11-96076A320F02.jpeg

Frame 3
This is where lack of flexibility creates issues (i.e. back pain) and poor technique. The subtle thing that’s happening here is that Gerr is able to bring his front knee up to his chest >> and plant his front foot on the board >> WITHOUT his hands coming off the floor. This is the key step where most people lack flexibility. And to compensate, they push up off the ground (leaving only one point of contact: their back foot for a brief moment while their front foot lands).

DEBBD415-3F69-48A1-B7C7-069D61B63988.jpeg

TIP TO BUILD FLEXIBILITY
I couldn’t plant my foot while keeping my front hands on the floor. So to start I propped my hand up on yoga blocks. Over time I whittled my way down to no blocks.

IMPROPER TECHNIQUE
Here’s a video of a guy who’s *almost* doing it right. But you can see that he has to pop up off his hands in order to get his front foot on the board


PS this technique can still work if both feet land at the same time. The key is that the hands are still in contact with board when the feet land.

PPS: it’s recommended that you do this very slowly so that your body gets used to the shape and develops motor control. Then once you can do it slow, do it fast.
 
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slipped_disc

Billy Hamilton status
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@One-Off I’d be curious if you can get your front foot under you without your hands leaving the ground (without experiencing pain) in a slow and controlled manner. Goes without saying, a warm up is essential. Asking because when back injuries heal, it seems fairly common for the healed back to be stiffer until mobility is addressed.
 
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Goofy_Footed

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Thanks @One-Off and @slipped_disc I’m goin to dive into all of this info when I get some time.

When I hurt my knee last year, part of my physical therapy was doing the mountain climbers. I have continued to incorporate them into my weekly routines as well as some of the other exercises they had me doing. Definitely going to try out the waveki technique to see if I can get my front foot down without my hands leaving the ground.
 
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slipped_disc

Billy Hamilton status
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Thanks @One-Off and @slipped_disc I’m goin to dive into all of this info when I get some time.

When I hurt my knee last year, part of my physical therapy was doing the mountain climbers. I have continued to incorporate them into my weekly routines as well as some of the other exercises they had me doing. Definitely going to try out the waveki technique to see if I can get my front foot down without my hands leaving the ground.
Hope it helps!
 
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One-Off

Tom Curren status
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@One-Off I’d be curious if you can get your front foot under you without your hands leaving the ground (without experiencing pain) in a slow and controlled manner. Goes without saying, a warm up is essential. Asking because when back injuries heal, it seems fairly common for the healed back to be stiffer until mobility is addressed.
Slow and controlled? Don't know about that. I just tried a normal pop up and I can get my foot between my hands, but if I do it naturally without thinking about it my foot lands aboutt 6" behind my hands. In that video about the pro's pop ups, I noticed he mentioned Setph Gilmour's foot lands between her hands. I also tried the mountain climber (not the jumping kind) and pulling my leg up as far as I can, I get my knee about 3" in front of my elbows and my foot is about 16" behind my hands.

One thing I've noticed ever since "injuring" my back, is that there are almost no exercises where you deliberately put your back in flexion. All the barbell exercises I do emphasize the "neutral spine." Instead while surfing the back is very often in flexion with anterior pelvic tilt (see my avatar). The only exercise I can think of that addresses this is the jefferson curl. However, even this video presents it as a hamstring stretch rather a back strengthening exercise. I like how he says to bend the spine vertebra by vertebra. I never really got the cat-cow until I came across a guy who said to do it one vertebra at a time.


This speaks more to my objective-

.

"The Jefferson curl provides low level loading in complete back and hip flexion to strengthen the back in positions and motions it tends to be vulnerable in. It serves as a protective exercise and can help with hip and back mobility."

I know Mr. J was (is?) doing them. Maybe he can chime in.

I'm somewhat a creature of habit and I like having a plan. I have a 15-20 minute stretching routine I do every morning. I've now developed the habit of doing a barbell workout once a week (usually Fridays to give me a recovery day on the weekend). I also want to develop a bodyweight circuit specifically for surfing that I will also do once a week. As it is now I do random things on random days. I know Von Meister would always say random stuff gets random results. If I ever get it done I will share. I am trying to make it surfing specific with a nod to running. I think jefferson curls will be part of it since...back flexion. Mountain climbers too. Pop ups and plyometric stuff. Oh, and neck stuff.
 
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slipped_disc

Billy Hamilton status
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Cool. I’ve always thought the same about Jefferson curls but never really messed with them. I would love if my back could do that kind of movement. Something to work towards eventually for me.
 

Mr J

Michael Peterson status
Aug 18, 2003
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...
Frame 1:
The back foot gets planted first. The three points of contact are backfoot and both hands.
...
PS this technique can still work if both feet land at the same time. The key is that the hands are still in contact with board when the feet land.
@slipped_disc thanks. The chicken wing does start with 3 point and finish with 4 point, what makes it the chicken wing is that the back foot locates the tailpad (if your boar has one) while the body is still lying on the deck. I think "grasshopper leg" would be more descriptive. Then the rest is like what you say. Unlike both feet at the same time it can be comfortably done on the floor without using the toes of what will be the front foot to push off, so can be more realistically practiced on the floor.

Despite knowing all this when I returned to the water after having got a 75% recovery from my shoulder nerve damage incident I had lost my pop up. I thought that was something that wasn't going to happen to me because I keep my core in decent shape. I could chicken wing pop-up on my foamie slab on a white water takeoff - yes born again beginner! but I'd lost it for steep takeoffs - lost my timing and confidence. I've got it back to a state I am happy with (lots of floor practice and time in the water just focusing on it). It never used to be that hard after prolonged periods out of the water - I'm aging.
 
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Mr J

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... I know Mr. J was (is?) doing them. Maybe he can chime in.
...
Yes, regularly. Did some yesterday, will do more tomorrow. I asked my chiropractor (who I haven't seen for a long time) if they were ok and I demonstrated. I was told "absolutely fine", although I didn't get any advice on technique.

I've watched a few youtube vids, but can no longer remember the details, so the way I approach it is very much my own take and comfort level, so should be taken with a bag of salt.

I completely lock my legs dead straight. While it was instinctive to try and take up a little strain with very slightly bent legs, the straighter the legs the less the strain on the lower back and the greater the strain on hamstrings and rear upper pelvis area (that bit just below the lower back - whatever that's called). So what I try and experience is a rear upper pelvis stretch. The looser my upper rear pelvis the less strain/rounding is transferred to my lower back. I am just not comfortable with the idea of trying to actually target a stretch to the lower back while standing with weights with my history of back pain. Bending over was a no-no when I was in the initial stages of chiro treatment/program. As I come out of the stretch into the upright position I tense the core - like @Autoprax I just think tensing the core is a good insurance policy.

I'm doing it with just a pair of 3KG dumbbells (ie total 6KG). Just 2 sets of about 10, sometimes twice in a day. With that frequency and low weight/sets it doesn't make my hamstrings sore at all the next day.
 

scdad

Legend (inyourownmind)
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TIP TO BUILD FLEXIBILITY
I couldn’t plant my foot while keeping my front hands on the floor. So to start I propped my hand up on yoga blocks. Over time I whittled my way down to no blocks.
After trying it Gerr's way, I'm doing the same as you. How long did it take you to work through that to get your foot between your hands? I'm wondering if I have T-rex arms. But, I'm definitely not as round and flexed as Gerr in those pics and his videos. Maybe there's hope.

And I love the Jefferson curls with a light weight just to practice stretching and contracting those erector muscles. I'm hoping that will help me get there.
 
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slipped_disc

Billy Hamilton status
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After trying it Gerr's way, I'm doing the same as you. How long did it take you to work through that to get your foot between your hands? I'm wondering if I have T-rex arms. But, I'm definitely not as round and flexed as Gerr in those pics and his videos. Maybe there's hope.

And I love the Jefferson curls with a light weight just to practice stretching and contracting those erector muscles. I'm hoping that will help me get there.
I took it slow. My low back was really stiff. It was probably several months. Found smaller props as I progressed. But now I can ball up and plant my foot between my hands without any struggle.

one other thing that helped me out aside from the blocks was backfoot positioning. Narrowing my stance (bringing my back foot further up the stringer towards the nose so to speak) also helped.
 
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