10 Myths About Lower Back Pain (LBP)

VonMeister

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You told me that I was stupid for saying that squats were a leg exercise. You also told me that squats were the best hip flexor exercise. Anyway lets put your incredible statements aside for now and discuss your question.
I said your chiropractor is stupid for saying deadlift and squats are leg day.

The bench press properly performed includes muscle recruitment of the hip flexors and legs. Is the bench press leg day?

DOMS is primarily caused by eccentric contraction. The only thing that protects you against DOMS is doing the activity more than once. If you are experiencing recurring pain from skim boarding you are likely feeling a minor recurring injury, like inflammation or joint pain due to incredible weakness.

Doing bodyweight exercises runs it's course of usefulness fairly quickly. You adapt to the stress and unless you are continually gaining weight the adaptations cease.
 

VonMeister

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Thanks a lot. To be clear, I am not trying to badger you. I think you're the most knowledgeable guy I've encountered on strength and conditioning. If you ever write a book, I will definitely buy it. I understand if you won't though because people absolutely refuse to read these days. Until then, I guess I'll have to buy the JTRS book when I finish several other books on other topics.

I wish Greg Griffin would write a book too.

On more thought. I was comparing the traditional understanding of rep ranges and their effects to the later scientific findings. The old guys actually came up with a pretty-good first-order model through trial and error. Sure, all rep ranges produce hypertrophy but you need volume and who wants to spend all day trying to get volume from low-rep sets? Their model was also therefore quite practical for the effects they wanted.
I hear you. I think you can get all the hypertrophy you need on major muscle groups in the 8 rep range, and 12-15 in the isolation movements, like curls, press downs etc. Muscles like quads and lats and glutes for instance just don't need much stimulation to grow.

There's nothing for me to write that hasn't already been written. The real value is being able to sniff out BS using common sense and experience. Starting Strength and Practical Programming are probably the two best books you can read. While I have my personal preferences in training that stray from the SS dogma it's mostly in advanced novice and intermediate lifters and only because my trainees have other physical obligations and can't devote the time and resources to just pulling or pushing more than last time.
 
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One-Off

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I hear you. I think you can get all the hypertrophy you need on major muscle groups in the 8 rep range, and 12-15 in the isolation movements, like curls, press downs etc. Muscles like quads and lats and glutes for instance just don't need much stimulation to grow.

There's nothing for me to write that hasn't already been written. The real value is being able to sniff out BS using common sense and experience. Starting Strength and Practical Programming are probably the two best books you can read. While I have my personal preferences in training that stray from the SS dogma it's mostly in advanced novice and intermediate lifters and only because my trainees have other physical obligations and can't devote the time and resources to just pulling or pushing more than last time.
Starting Strength or Barbell Medicine?

I've stopped getting DOMS from strength day which I know means I have to up the stress. Reps, or invest in more equipment...

My back is still sore the evening after surfing. Not DOMS.
 

PRCD

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Starting Strength or Barbell Medicine?

I've stopped getting DOMS from strength day which I know means I have to up the stress.
Lack of DOMS does not mean lack of training stress. If you're training for strength, you know you're goign through the Selye cycle if you're adding weight to the bar.

My back is still sore the evening after surfing. Not DOMS.
This is a neurological chronic pain response - a "protect by pain" response. It really doesn't indicate anything other than that your alarm system is overly sensitive.
 

One-Off

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Lack of DOMS does not mean lack of training stress. If you're training for strength, you know you're goign through the Selye cycle if you're adding weight to the bar.


This is a neurological chronic pain response - a "protect by pain" response. It really doesn't indicate anything other than that your alarm system is overly sensitive.
How do I turn my alarm system off? I know what Havoc is going to say. Lift 2x bodyweight.
 
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VonMeister

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How do I turn my alarm system off? I know what Havoc is going to say. Lift 2x bodyweight.
You have to believe you aren't broken. This is the point we were trying to make a year ago.

Pain is not indicative of injury severity.

Life in not pain free. Pain is a natural and normal feeling. You body is changing as you age. This doesn't mean you are on the verge of injury even though your brain is reading these benign neurological inputs as danger signals.
 

One-Off

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You have to believe you aren't broken. This is the point we were trying to make a year ago.

Pain is not indicative of injury severity.

Life in not pain free. Pain is a natural and normal feeling. You body is changing as you age. This doesn't mean you are on the verge of injury even though your brain is reading these benign neurological inputs as danger signals.
I believe!

I've always believed. My pain is not debilitating. It hampers my surfing a little bit and that's about it. It's gotten a lot better. But it's there, that's all.

What does it mean when I hear a clunking sound when doing mountain climbers? I can't tell if it's my spine or my hips.
 
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Mr J

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I said your chiropractor is stupid for saying deadlift and squats are leg day.

The bench press properly performed includes muscle recruitment of the hip flexors and legs. Is the bench press leg day?

DOMS is primarily caused by eccentric contraction. The only thing that protects you against DOMS is doing the activity more than once. If you are experiencing recurring pain from skim boarding you are likely feeling a minor recurring injury, like inflammation or joint pain due to incredible weakness.

Doing bodyweight exercises runs it's course of usefulness fairly quickly. You adapt to the stress and unless you are continually gaining weight the adaptations cease.
You told me way back in this thread that I was stupid for calling squats a leg exercise. You are just digging a bigger hole for yourself trying to explain that.

So if DOMS is primarily being caused from eccentric contraction then my exercises which involve a slow descent would make sense. Regardless eccentric exercises are thought to protect against over-use injuries aren't they. So if my flexors have "incredible weakness" it makes complete sense to do some strength training doesn't it! Which was exactly my answer to your question on why have I been doing split squats. Isometric exercises are also thought to be helpful for that too, which is why I introduce a 10 second pause at the bottom.

While I am not averse to adding some dumbbells if I need it, there is absolutely no need to pursue some program which is forever increasing load once the protective strength buffer is reached. Unless you are into body building or some weight numbers goal.

Split squat no weight seems to have done the job, I have not experienced hip flexor soreness for months. I backed off my main hobbies while I was building strength, but now I am actually very happy with where I am today - surfing heaps 4 days a week, twice a day. Get more value out of my contact lenses that way lol. Some skimming and skateboarding too. No back pain at all - no twinges, no aches. I don't take it for granted though and realize things might go bad again, so that's why I do maintenance exercises. When I do one of my bent leg side planks I lean inwards to put some external rotation load (sartorius I think, also a flexor component). No weight/light weight allows me good eccentric/isometric control. A difference between you and me is that you train heavy, I train smart.
 

VonMeister

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You told me way back in this thread that I was stupid for calling squats a leg exercise. You are just digging a bigger hole for yourself trying to explain that.

So if DOMS is primarily being caused from eccentric contraction then my exercises which involve a slow descent would make sense. Regardless eccentric exercises are thought to protect against over-use injuries aren't they. So if my flexors have "incredible weakness" it makes complete sense to do some strength training doesn't it! Which was exactly my answer to your question on why have I been doing split squats. Isometric exercises are also thought to be helpful for that too, which is why I introduce a 10 second pause at the bottom.

While I am not averse to adding some dumbbells if I need it, there is absolutely no need to pursue some program which is forever increasing load once the protective strength buffer is reached. Unless you are into body building or some weight numbers goal.

Split squat no weight seems to have done the job, I have not experienced hip flexor soreness for months. I backed off my main hobbies while I was building strength, but now I am actually very happy with where I am today - surfing heaps 4 days a week, twice a day. Get more value out of my contact lenses that way lol. Some skimming and skateboarding too. No back pain at all - no twinges, no aches. I don't take it for granted though and realize things might go bad again, so that's why I do maintenance exercises. When I do one of my bent leg side planks I lean inwards to put some external rotation load (sartorius I think, also a flexor component). No weight/light weight allows me good eccentric/isometric control. A difference between you and me is that you train heavy, I train smart.
You're stupid because you can't understand English. I said your chiropractor is stupid for calling squats and deadlifts leg day. You're acting like a woman.

Eccentric exercises are not thought to protect against overuse injuries. Not overusing is what protects against overuse injuries.

Your whole body has incredible weakness.

Dumbbells aren't what you need.

What is the protective strength buffer?

Bodybuilding is for homo's.

You haven't experienced soreness because you haven't adding any training stress. Your body has adapted to the body weight split squat. Because of this you are now just doing them for fun.

You don't seem very happy.

You don't train. You do random silly bullshit and get random shitty results. In the course of this thread you've done nothing but gripe about pain and injuries, while I've been training and injury free. Who's the smart one? (hint..because you aren't the smart one it's not you.)
 
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Mr J

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You're stupid because you can't understand English. I said your chiropractor is stupid for calling squats and deadlifts leg day. You're acting like a woman.

Eccentric exercises are not thought to protect against overuse injuries. Not overusing is what protects against overuse injuries.

Your whole body has incredible weakness.

Dumbbells aren't what you need.

What is the protective strength buffer?

Bodybuilding is for homo's.

You haven't experienced soreness because you haven't adding any training stress. Your body has adapted to the body weight split squat. Because of this you are now just doing them for fun.

You don't seem very happy.

You don't train. You do random silly bullshit and get random shitty results. In the course of this thread you've done nothing but gripe about pain and injuries, while I've been training and injury free. Who's the smart one? (hint..because you aren't the smart one it's not you.)
oh my! This is the 21st century, we should have got past bigoted attitudes. While non hompophic generalisations might be made about body builders, as always generalisations get us into trouble and it comes down to whether the individual is a decent human being or not. Obviously I am not doing that sport, but it is for whoever wants to do it.

If you think anything other than a squat or deadlift is random bullshit, then I suppose what I am doing would look like that to you. From my perspective it is not random at all - everything I do is chosen for reason. e.g. push up on exercise ball suggested by a sports scientist I used to work with (he surfed at intermediate level and did them because part of popping up is pushing with arms onto what he considered a wobbly object). Plank with both feet on ball and one arm on floor prescribed to me by physiotherapist for the purpose of re-habbing body for surfing. One arm on floor introduces wobble which forces core reflexes to fire - it is explained to me that part of core protective strength is getting those core muscle reflexes to operate. Of course you don't believe this, but when it comes to believing you or my health professionals I choose my health professionals.

Another example - slow jack knife on excercise ball involves lowering my pelvis towards floor in push up using more front hip extension rather than back extension, then pulling the ball towards me to work some of those pop up muscles. I have been warned about hyper extending my back from a massage therapist who noticed it, so this teaches me to safely handle that white water take off situation where I use the cobra position to provide some braking (and deal with the weight of water on my back) based on pushing with my arms rather than contracting lower back muscles.

I am not suggesting anyone do what I do though without either consulting their health professional or doing at their own risk. I already mentioned that the hip stretching I do can be bad for some people.

PS pain I referred to is from over 10 years ago in the case of my back, 20 years ago in the case of my knee. I have had some acute injuries to my shoulder from a few years ago and further back, but then sports such as skateboarding are dangerous and that's the risk I take.
 

VonMeister

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oh my! This is the 21st century, we should have got past bigoted attitudes. While non hompophic generalisations might be made about body builders, as always generalisations get us into trouble and it comes down to whether the individual is a decent human being or not. Obviously I am not doing that sport, but it is for whoever wants to do it.

If you think anything other than a squat or deadlift is random bullshit, then I suppose what I am doing would look like that to you. From my perspective it is not random at all - everything I do is chosen for reason. e.g. push up on exercise ball suggested by a sports scientist I used to work with (he surfed at intermediate level and did them because part of popping up is pushing with arms onto what he considered a wobbly object). Plank with both feet on ball and one arm on floor prescribed to me by physiotherapist for the purpose of re-habbing body for surfing. One arm on floor introduces wobble which forces core reflexes to fire - it is explained to me that part of core protective strength is getting those core muscle reflexes to operate. Of course you don't believe this, but when it comes to believing you or my health professionals I choose my health professionals.

Another example - slow jack knife on excercise ball involves lowering my pelvis towards floor in push up using more front hip extension rather than back extension, then pulling the ball towards me to work some of those pop up muscles. I have been warned about hyper extending my back from a massage therapist who noticed it, so this teaches me to safely handle that white water take off situation where I use the cobra position to provide some braking (and deal with the weight of water on my back) based on pushing with my arms rather than contracting lower back muscles.

I am not suggesting anyone do what I do though without either consulting their health professional or doing at their own risk. I already mentioned that the hip stretching I do can be bad for some people.

PS pain I referred to is from over 10 years ago in the case of my back, 20 years ago in the case of my knee. I have had some acute injuries to my shoulder from a few years ago and further back, but then sports such as skateboarding are dangerous and that's the risk I take.
Ok Karen.
 

PRCD

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oh my! This is the 21st century, we should have got past bigoted attitudes. While non hompophic generalisations might be made about body builders, as always generalisations get us into trouble and it comes down to whether the individual is a decent human being or not. Obviously I am not doing that sport, but it is for whoever wants to do it.
"This is current year" or "this is current century" is a terrible argument. When someone makes a generalization about bodybuilders, they're speaking in terms of comprehension. In other words, what is the inner meaning of the term "bodybuilder" or the concept of a bodybuilder. Generally, they are narcissistic and getting up on stage in posing trunks is homo-erotic. These qualities help us comprehend the term "bodybuilder." The extension of the term "bodybuilder" is "everyone who bodybuilds" - a description of quantity instead of quality (comprehension). You're confusing the two terms in your mind. Most post-moderns/hyper-moderns do, which is why they can't think. Lifting is a thinking man's game.

Let's look at a generalization about stop-signs, which have a binomial distribution (stop/go). Generally, people stop at them and generally they stop people. But not all people stop at all stop signs. Does this mean we can't generalize about stop signs or comprehend them?
 
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Mr J

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What is the protective strength buffer?
... .
How do I know when I have obtained sufficient strength to protect against limb injury or a bad back? That's a good question I have for you and everybody.

My answer is I don't know. My routine is a bit of a guess in terms of sets reps, how long to hold a loaded stretch/isometric pause etc. There has been suggestions from various health professionals, but a lot of it is down to what suits me in terms of the things I can mentally/physically handle and can fit into a routine that I will maintain and won't get fed up with.

I'm not an elite athlete so my attitude is that its not of utmost importance to get the most perfect maintenance program. Although I can consult my chiropractor I am not under the guidance of some personal strength/stretching coach designing a routine for me. What I am doing has been collected from various sources. I remember years ago I described the routine I had arrived at to my chiro for an opinion and was told "thats plenty, no need to overdo it".

Designing barbell training routines for others is part of what you do isn't it? How do you know when the squats and deadlifts are enough to protect the back - I think you quoted some specific number in lbs which was independent of body weight - how did you arrive at that. Not from peer reviewed research I wouldn't think.
 

VonMeister

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How do I know when I have obtained sufficient strength to protect against limb injury or a bad back? That's a good question I have for you and everybody.

My answer is I don't know. My routine is a bit of a guess in terms of sets reps, how long to hold a loaded stretch/isometric pause etc. There has been suggestions from various health professionals, but a lot of it is down to what suits me in terms of the things I can mentally/physically handle and can fit into a routine that I will maintain and won't get fed up with.

I'm not an elite athlete so my attitude is that its not of utmost importance to get the most perfect maintenance program. Although I can consult my chiropractor I am not under the guidance of some personal strength/stretching coach designing a routine for me. What I am doing has been collected from various sources. I remember years ago I described the routine I had arrived at to my chiro for an opinion and was told "thats plenty, no need to overdo it".

Designing barbell training routines for others is part of what you do isn't it? How do you know when the squats and deadlifts are enough to protect the back - I think you quoted some specific number in lbs which was independent of body weight - how did you arrive at that. Not from peer reviewed research I wouldn't think.
Maybe you should stop guessing?

Its going to be different for everyone. I've arrived at squatting 275# for a set of five as my arbitrary number because the demographic I work with responds well when they reach that point and after that there are diminishing returns and we begin to move into the personal preference range, be it feeling, athletic performance etc etc. There are some lifters who due to genetics and or age will never reach that goal because they started much to late in life or for any number of reasons do not have the capacity to reach that goal. For them, training continues as a part of living a healthy full life.

Instead of twisting things and focusing on doing the absolute bare minimum you could look at the in a very simple and logical way. We know injuries are going to happen at some point. Would you rather be 1. injured and weak, or 2. injured and strong.
 
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PRCD

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Maybe you should stop guessing?

Its going to be different for everyone. I've arrived at squatting 275# for a set of five as my arbitrary number because the demographic I work with responds well when they reach that point
Age? BW?
 

VonMeister

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Depends on the person and previous training. The more you do when you're young, the more capacity you will have when you are older. If an average 60 year old male walked into a good strength and conditioning gym today he would hit these numbers in weeks.

BW doesn't matter. It's one of this self regulating things. 275 is a very meager amount of weight. Something a generation ago was very easy to train men to do. Today we have men that can fit in their wives clothes and spend the last 20 years of their lives being sick and sedentary because they blew their opportunity to live a full life by believing that walking 30 minutes a couple times a week was all they needed to do.
 

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Maybe you should stop guessing?

Its going to be different for everyone. I've arrived at squatting 275# for a set of five as my arbitrary number because the demographic I work with responds well when they reach that point and after that there are diminishing returns and we begin to move into the personal preference range, be it feeling, athletic performance etc etc. There are some lifters who due to genetics and or age will never reach that goal because they started much to late in life or for any number of reasons do not have the capacity to reach that goal. For them, training continues as a part of living a healthy full life.

Instead of twisting things and focusing on doing the absolute bare minimum you could look at the in a very simple and logical way. We know injuries are going to happen at some point. Would you rather be 1. injured and weak, or 2. injured and strong.
What does "responds well" mean?
 

Mr J

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"This is current year" or "this is current century" is a terrible argument. When someone makes a generalization about bodybuilders, they're speaking in terms of comprehension. In other words, what is the inner meaning of the term "bodybuilder" or the concept of a bodybuilder. Generally, they are narcissistic and getting up on stage in posing trunks is homo-erotic. These qualities help us comprehend the term "bodybuilder." The extension of the term "bodybuilder" is "everyone who bodybuilds" - a description of quantity instead of quality (comprehension). You're confusing the two terms in your mind. Most post-moderns/hyper-moderns do, which is why they can't think. Lifting is a thinking man's game.

Let's look at a generalization about stop-signs, which have a binomial distribution (stop/go). Generally, people stop at them and generally they stop people. But not all people stop at all stop signs. Does this mean we can't generalize about stop signs or comprehend them?
not sure about your stop sign analogy, but dissecting your first paragraph down to the generalisation that body-building encourages narcissistic self image there could be some truth in that. My point is that it is not so clear cut.

At one end of weightlifting there is the competitive bodybuilder whose ultimate goal is how they look on the stage, then the polar end has the competitive powerlifters and olympic lifters where it is all about the numbers of weight lifted off the ground/rack. However no one on this thread is a competitive power or Olympic lifter are they? Weightlifting can bring some physical appearance benefits, so if you enjoy that, then that's body building isn't it?

I therefore assumed that some of you are crossing over into recreational body building. The stage of the recreational body builder is the office or social event. One of the sports scientists I work with lifts weights. Not competitive, likes to wear t-shirts that show off his physique. I would say he is body building. He is a decent bloke though, does not look down on those who aren't fit or strong. Then there is the bloke at the end of my street, 10 years younger than me - a retired policeman. Appears to be comfortably off, owns a nice car and boat he hardly uses. Retired with PTSD, mental problems and a physical mess, has the muscle tone of a lump of jelly. Nice enough person, but I steer clear of him coz I am not a people person and not good at listening to other peoples problems. I'd rather deal with someone who takes more care of themselves and has more self respect.

Part of my back program has been to improve my posture with everyday lifestyle changes and some exercises. Over 12 years or so I have straightened out, not perfect, decades of sloppy sitting can't be cancelled out, but I enjoy having better posture and feel better about myself. So I don't see anything inherently wrong with enjoying better aesthetic benefits from lifting. Some individuals are more well rounded than others, so handle that sport better.

The superstar bodybuilders make the world a more interesting place too. I thought Terminator 2 was an awesome movie :) Plus many if not all bodybuilders do include athletic numbers goals, that is numbers in terms of kilos of iron lifted off the floor as opposed to just body circumference.
 
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