10 Myths About Lower Back Pain (LBP)

PRCD

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Max Shank is certified in YouTube.

Both Max Shank and the knees over toes guy are goofballs that are trying to make a living as "movement specialists" fitness youtubers and e-book authors so they need everything to be exciting, fresh, and new.
This is true of everyone in the fitness industry. The question is, what is the evidence for their claims?

Pro-athletes and other genetically gifted people can get away with fitness nonsense because their genetics allow them to be extremely sensitive to training stress....it's why they are high level athletes.
Most people in the fitness industry are simply marketing themselves based on their genetic gifts and/or Vitamin S. Trainees think they will look like someone if they train like him.
 
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VonMeister

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This is true of everyone in the fitness industry. The question is, what is the evidence for their claims?


Most people in the fitness industry are simply marketing themselves based on their genetic gifts and/or Vitamin S. Trainees think they will look like someone if they train like him.
The medical evidence for training is that strong people are less likely to get injured, recover from injury quicker, and live a longer fuller life than weak people. Strong people are also better at doing physical and athletic things.

How do we get strong? Any number of ways with compound movements under external resistance being the fastest and most efficient way. If alternative way is less effective or efficient...but is likely to help with compliance to a program for a certain individual I would wholeheartedly program with that in mind. For instance I hate kettlebells and generally fell they are barely better than useless at everything that are intended for but really good at holding doors open when its windy. if someone loved kettlebells I would build a program around that and hopefully blend in some general strength work as we moved forward.

Muscles are very simple. They contract and release directionally along the muscle fibers, triggered by a neural input. They don't care what you are doing or how you are doing it. This is why Max Skank and people like him are just selling snake oil. They are selling people on the myth that your muscles are going to somehow react differently by putting your body in nonspecific compromised positions. We know strength is specific so at face value its bullshit. It's also dangerous and a good way to waste a lot of time getting less strong than you could be otherwise. Your body protects itself by contracting muscles. It does this automatically without conscious thought. Training in compromised positions doesn't teach your body to protect itself. It lessens the degree to which your body is able to protect itself because you are left less strong. For instance....could you deadlift more with two feet on the ground or standing on one foot? If you trained on one foot at a time you would be wasting time getting less strong. Not one single muscle in your body would be firing any more or less, or differently than if you stood on both feet. it would be hard, the intensity would go up...but the stress goes way down. Stress is what we adapt to and why creates strength. Simple.
 

PRCD

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The medical evidence for training is that strong people are less likely to get injured, recover from injury quicker, and live a longer fuller life than weak people. Strong people are also better at doing physical and athletic things.

How do we get strong? Any number of ways with compound movements under external resistance being the fastest and most efficient way. If alternative way is less effective or efficient...but is likely to help with compliance to a program for a certain individual I would wholeheartedly program with that in mind. For instance I hate kettlebells and generally fell they are barely better than useless at everything that are intended for but really good at holding doors open when its windy. if someone loved kettlebells I would build a program around that and hopefully blend in some general strength work as we moved forward.

Muscles are very simple. They contract and release directionally along the muscle fibers, triggered by a neural input. They don't care what you are doing or how you are doing it. This is why Max Skank and people like him are just selling snake oil. They are selling people on the myth that your muscles are going to somehow react differently by putting your body in nonspecific compromised positions. We know strength is specific so at face value its bullshit. It's also dangerous and a good way to waste a lot of time getting less strong than you could be otherwise. Your body protects itself by contracting muscles. It does this automatically without conscious thought. Training in compromised positions doesn't teach your body to protect itself. It lessens the degree to which your body is able to protect itself because you are left less strong. For instance....could you deadlift more with two feet on the ground or standing on one foot? If you trained on one foot at a time you would be wasting time getting less strong. Not one single muscle in your body would be firing any more or less, or differently than if you stood on both feet. it would be hard, the intensity would go up...but the stress goes way down. Stress is what we adapt to and why creates strength. Simple.
I looked at Shank's claims completely differently: what measurements has he made and data has he taken to back-up his claims? None. What studies back his claims? He doesn't provide any. If he had at least taken data on himself such as, "Exercise X done on this program increased Y," it would be something, but he doesn't even provide that. The Dragon Door is some sort of exercise cult.

That said, it sounds like you see no benefit to single-leg training. I agree with your points about stress and strength, but I think there are other beneficial neurological adaptations you are overlooking. I mentioned these in my comments about pain neurotags and body maps. Would these exercises provide benefits such as fluid motion that would be advantageous to athletes or the ability to use just-enough strength to get the job done for an endurance athlete? IOW, are their more benefits to training than just strength? Pain science suggests "yes." This would have to be measured and quantified though.

SHank's problem is that he claims explosive strength benefits from exercises that clearly put you at a disadvantage in producing maximum force, as you said.
 

VonMeister

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I looked at Shank's claims completely differently: what measurements has he made and data has he taken to back-up his claims? None. What studies back his claims? He doesn't provide any. If he had at least taken data on himself such as, "Exercise X done on this program increased Y," it would be something, but he doesn't even provide that. The Dragon Door is some sort of exercise cult.

That said, it sounds like you see no benefit to single-leg training. I agree with your points about stress and strength, but I think there are other beneficial neurological adaptations you are overlooking. I mentioned these in my comments about pain neurotags and body maps. Would these exercises provide benefits such as fluid motion that would be advantageous to athletes or the ability to use just-enough strength to get the job done for an endurance athlete? IOW, are their more benefits to training than just strength? Pain science suggests "yes." This would have to be measured and quantified though.

SHank's problem is that he claims explosive strength benefits from exercises that clearly put you at a disadvantage in producing maximum force, as you said.
I do see a benefit to single leg training. I commonly use split squat variations for trainees. I don't randomly program them, but they have a place. There's a big difference between that and what Max Skank proposes people do. I would never recommend a single leg deadlift. It's a stupid human trick.
 
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PRCD

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Also, neural adaptations are in response to physiologic stress. You don't get more or different neurological adaptation by exercise selection.
Are you saying, for example, that a front squat and a back squat produce identical neurological adaptations?
 

VonMeister

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Are you saying, for example, that a front squat and a back squat produce identical neurological adaptations?
It could but there are individual variations at play. If I was looking for simply maximum neurological adaptation (which is overused and misunderstood,) I would be comfortable using any of the three barbell squat variations.
 

VonMeister

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The low bar back squat and the conventional deadlift are specific. I think both offer training stress specific to competitive lifting and with respect to the low bar back squat, hip recruitment through the range of motion which I believe makes a person wholly stronger and translates to the other lifts.

I always program 4-5 sets of ten high bar back squat for people trying to get strong. I usually leave it as the last thing to do on heavy deadlift day, which is the last training day of the week. I let the lifters choose the weight they use unless they are going obscenely light. These high rep sets help build capacity which is important to finish a heavy set of squats down the road.

If general training stress is all that is required or wanted you could use any variation of these lifts to provide adequate stress. One of the misconceptions is that the variations don't provide the range of motion that the conventional lifts do...which is true to a very limited degree, but when muscle recruitment and stress are measured the sumo deadlift for instance is not at a stress disadvantage to the conventional deadlift even though you lose a couple inches or less of range of motion. I don't like them because I think they are silly but you will get identical neurological adaptations from either choice which is just a byproduct of the applied physiologic stress.

With younger golfers for instance I many times will use a trap bar until they begin if ever asking for the conventional deadlift. They just don't need the specificity for what they are in the gym for. They are getting plenty of stress and subsequent adaptation. For adults, especially older adults I like the conventional deadlift because I think the range of motion is important for this demographic and also the required back and shoulder recruitment necessary to keep the bar against the shins as the weight goes up. You don't get as much of this with sumo or trap bar. Weak people also need to experience doing hard things and just getting into the proper conventional deadlift position is hard.
 
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Chocki

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First, there's isn't a strength and conditioning certification that exists today with the academic rigor and aptitude requirements necessary to demonstrate competency in being a strength and conditioning coach. I don't know why, but there just isn't.

No one manages to get a CSCS.:roflmao::roflmao: You pay the online fee and you get the online certification.

Congratulations. You are now qualified for a job at 24 hour fitness.:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

The only reason to get a CSCS is if your too stupid to get insurance any other way.

I guarantee with 100% certainty you could not properly coach a trainee in the Squat, The Deadlift, the Bench Press, the Overhead Press or any related assistance exercise. I'm equally certain you could not develop a reasonable strength and conditioning program for any level of trainee, from novice to advanced.
Exactly the answer I expected from you. Why you so scared to tell us what your certification is homie?
And you would 100% lose that bet. The coaching cues for those lifts aren’t rocket science and were a big part of the study materials/exam.Program design too.
I haven’t read it in a while but I’m pretty sure anything you know and then some I can find in the CSCS manual or here
Or in a book by Poliquin, Staley, Dan John, etc.


If the CSCS was so worthless why did your bf the juicy Dr J of Barbell Medicine see the need to get one.

“The NSCA Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist (CSCS) certification is the gold standard in the strength and conditioning field.
Personal trainers, strength coaches, sports physical therapists, athletic trainers, and others try to tackle this exam to demonstrate advanced knowledge regarding training and science pertaining to athletes.
The CSCS exam is notoriously difficult with a pass rate of around 56%. In this article, I will give you tips and strategies regarding how to study for and pass the CSCS exam.”



 
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VonMeister

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Youtube and e-books links. You're a consumer. :roflmao:

I share knowledge based on my experience and advice from others I trust. With everything in life, I hope I can help but YMMV. Take some all or none..I don't care.

You share YouTube links of stupid human tricks.

I know Dan John. Let me know if you want me to make an introduction.

I don't care why anyone would get a CSCS. Generally it's the only way for guys like you to get insurance for your job drawing in suckers for 30 bucks a month at the local globo gym. It That's the value....30 bucks a month. Claiming that only 56% of people can pass it (which isn't true, everyone who pays passes) shows how bad at this people like you are. It's not like it's proctored. There isn't a single online certification for anything on earth that only 56% of people can pass.:roflmao: Not a good look gymBro.

Like I said ding ding dong. You claim you have a CSCS but I know with 100% certainty you could not competently design or coach a person though any strength and conditioning program or coach anyone how to properly perform any lift.
 
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PRCD

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It could but there are individual variations at play. If I was looking for simply maximum neurological adaptation (which is overused and misunderstood,) I would be comfortable using any of the three barbell squat variations.
I'm thinking of using different lifts for hypertrophy. I found that switching to traditional bodybuilding movements really helped for hypertrophy in lagging bodyparts (QUADZ and upper chest). Much of the effect was probably increasing rep ranges. IDK, different lifts definitely help feel the targeted muscles in the way the squat and bench didn't.

The low bar back squat and the conventional deadlift are specific. I think both offer training stress specific to competitive lifting and with respect to the low bar back squat, hip recruitment through the range of motion which I believe makes a person wholly stronger and translates to the other lifts.

I always program 4-5 sets of ten high bar back squat for people trying to get strong. I usually leave it as the last thing to do on heavy deadlift day, which is the last training day of the week. I let the lifters choose the weight they use unless they are going obscenely light. These high rep sets help build capacity which is important to finish a heavy set of squats down the road.
Is training and programming a side-gig for you?

Weak people also need to experience doing hard things and just getting into the proper conventional deadlift position is hard.
This is the thing SS absolutely gets right.
 

VonMeister

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I'm thinking of using different lifts for hypertrophy. I found that switching to traditional bodybuilding movements really helped for hypertrophy in lagging bodyparts (QUADZ and upper chest). Much of the effect was probably increasing rep ranges. IDK, different lifts definitely help feel the targeted muscles in the way the squat and bench didn't.


Is training and programming a side-gig for you?


This is the thing SS absolutely gets right.
Hypertrophy and strength aren't mutually exclusive. Heavy or light, taking all sets to near failure will get essentially equivalent hypertrophy outcomes but there are other considerations that come in to play. With volume and intensity you are going to have different strength outcomes, fatigue generation and ability to recover. Stopping a couple reps short of failure or near failure has a larger impact on hypertrophy than weight, rep, or exercise selection.

There is always a HUGE individual difference response to training stress so you need to monitor numbers and how you feel things are progressing. It's nothing that's going to be noticeable in a couple training sessions.


Generally when training for hypertrophy I use the same lifts, or variations of the lifts but use rep ranges that when weighted can be safely performed to failure 8-12 for compound lifts, 12-15 for things like arms, rows, calfs etc.. Trying to target specific muscles is silly and a waste of time unless you are a competitive bodybuilder and they use synthol for that anyway. At the end of the day your training needs to be individualized and if something is working, carry on until it doesn't...then. make small incremental changes so you can track what drives the response you are looking for and what doesn't.

My personal recovery from some serious injuries is what got me down this road. I was lucky enough to partner up with some trainers and a physician on a business in Texas that specialized in strength training and rehab for athletes. I also spent a lot of time at seminars, conferences, auditing classes when possible at local universities in areas I thought would interest me or give me some knowledge that I would find helpful. I'm currently in the process of opening a new facility in the Westlake-Calabasas area that will expand us into sport specific practice facilities. Many of our trainees came to Texas from California. Hopefully it results in a financial return doing something I enjoy or that is fulfilling.
 

VonMeister

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yeah upper chest, biceps, and calves dont get much development with sbd training program. sbd is fkn hard so pretty gassed to even do curls after a session tho
I remember about 6 weeks into LP I was either training, eating, or sleeping. Walking around in that training fog. Looking back I don't think I accurately remember how exhausting it was because I know I never want to do it again.
 

PRCD

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Trying to target specific muscles is silly and a waste of time unless you are a competitive bodybuilder
On one hand, I don't think you can target them perfectly. On the other hand, changing the line-of-drive with different exercises makes perfect engineering/physics sense. I don't know if I agree with you here. I've seen rapid, noticeable improvements in certain body parts by changing exercise.

My personal recovery from some serious injuries is what got me down this road. I was lucky enough to partner up with some trainers and a physician on a business in Texas that specialized in strength training and rehab for athletes. I also spent a lot of time at seminars, conferences, auditing classes when possible at local universities in areas I thought would interest me or give me some knowledge that I would find helpful. I'm currently in the process of opening a new facility in the Westlake-Calabasas area that will expand us into sport specific practice facilities. Many of our trainees came to Texas from California. Hopefully it results in a financial return doing something I enjoy or that is fulfilling.
Aswesome.
 

VonMeister

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On one hand, I don't think you can target them perfectly. On the other hand, changing the line-of-drive with different exercises makes perfect engineering/physics sense. I don't know if I agree with you here. I've seen rapid, noticeable improvements in certain body parts by changing exercise.
I mentioned, there's a large degree of individuality...but for muscles...it's simply hypertrophy whether it's thorough targeting or part of a larger compound movement. The physical benefits of compound movements is always going to be greater than attempting to target.
 
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PRCD

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I mentioned, there's a large degree of individuality...but for muscles...it's simply hypertrophy whether it's thorough targeting or part of a larger compound movement. The physical benefits of compound movements is always going to be greater than attempting to target.
"PHysical benefits of compound movements.." you mean, "for the entire body?" IOW, I will get better hypertrophy benefits over the entire body by choosing a compound movement? I don't disagree there.
 

Autoprax

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Hypertrophy and strength aren't mutually exclusive. Heavy or light, taking all sets to near failure will get essentially equivalent hypertrophy outcomes but there are other considerations that come in to play. With volume and intensity you are going to have different strength outcomes, fatigue generation and ability to recover. Stopping a couple reps short of failure or near failure has a larger impact on hypertrophy than weight, rep, or exercise selection.

There is always a HUGE individual difference response to training stress so you need to monitor numbers and how you feel things are progressing. It's nothing that's going to be noticeable in a couple training sessions.


Generally when training for hypertrophy I use the same lifts, or variations of the lifts but use rep ranges that when weighted can be safely performed to failure 8-12 for compound lifts, 12-15 for things like arms, rows, calfs etc.. Trying to target specific muscles is silly and a waste of time unless you are a competitive bodybuilder and they use synthol for that anyway. At the end of the day your training needs to be individualized and if something is working, carry on until it doesn't...then. make small incremental changes so you can track what drives the response you are looking for and what doesn't.

My personal recovery from some serious injuries is what got me down this road. I was lucky enough to partner up with some trainers and a physician on a business in Texas that specialized in strength training and rehab for athletes. I also spent a lot of time at seminars, conferences, auditing classes when possible at local universities in areas I thought would interest me or give me some knowledge that I would find helpful. I'm currently in the process of opening a new facility in the Westlake-Calabasas area that will expand us into sport specific practice facilities. Many of our trainees came to Texas from California. Hopefully it results in a financial return doing something I enjoy or that is fulfilling.
Can I come by for a free workout and a smoothie?

Post photos when the place is done. I want to see.
 
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GromsDad

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Having lower back pain for the first time ever this past week. Do I have to read all 56 pages of this thread or can someone sum it up for me? :roflmao:

Tweeked it slightly while surfing and then long plane ride followed by carrying board bags and backpacks probably half a mile to car followed by hour and a half drive home from the airport. Been pretty buggered up since. Never had lower back pain before in my life. Peaked on Tuesday and ever so slightly better every day since.