Palisades Fire

Firebird

Gerry Lopez status
Jun 5, 2010
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Different colored ribbons (flagging tape) indicate different things. Some indicate a predesignated escape route in case conditions go to sh!t. Some indicate trees or brush that need to be cleared. Some are to signal down, charged power lines. Some are just bread crumbs to let other members of a crew know how to follow the scouts into a working area. Different crews use different colored flagging tape for different reasons.
Newsom set aside $2B for fire emergencies this year, but it probably won't be enough.
As far as prescribed burns, it's a political hot potato. Both sides of the argument have very valid points, leading to a stalemate. Particularly in highly populated areas like Laguna, Pacific Palisades, Malibu, Ventura, Santa Barbara, etc. the chance of a prescribed fire slopping over the fire break are not worth the risk. Especially with the unkowns, like "urban campers" or whatever the current PC term is this week. The Incident Commanders can be held civilly accountable for accidental loss or mistakes, so no one in the fire service will touch this type of project for fear of potential lawsuit.
As far as brush clearance goes, it's an insurmountable task. 100 years of accumulated under brush across the state (not to mention, bark beetle die off) has created so much unburned fuel, the cost and man hours to bring it under control are unimaginable. Consequently, the answer ends up to be, do nothing.
The drought contributes to the problem, but even in wet years, the moisture creates more growth that dries in the summer. Adding to the fuel load.
I could talk your ear off about all of these issues, but that's the Reader's Digest version.
 
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Firebird

Gerry Lopez status
Jun 5, 2010
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HAHAHAHAHA!
Yeah, sprinklering your property to protect against wildfire? Good luck with that. I've watched 250 gal/min fire streams evaporate from the heat of the head of a fire before the water even touches the flame.
How about fires that burn so hot that they ignite the paint on a hydrant, so that when you locate a hydrant and attempt to connect to the hydrant to establish a water supply, you can't because your water supply is on fire!!!!
Strange days indeed. Doesn't look like it'll get better any time soon.
 

Chocki

Phil Edwards status
Feb 18, 2007
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Different colored ribbons indicate different things. Some indicate a predesignated escape route in case conditions go to sh!t. Some indicate trees or brush that need to be cleared. Some are to signal down, charged power lines. Some are just bread crumbs to let other members of a crew know how to follow the scouts into a working area. Different crews use different colored flagging tape for different reasons.
Newsom set aside $2B for fire emergencies this year, but it probably won't be enough.
As far as prescribed burns, it's a political hot potato. Both sides of the argument have very valid points, leading to a stalemate. Particularly in highly populated areas like Laguna, Pacific Palisades, Malibu, Ventura, Santa Barbara, etc. the chance of a prescribed fire slopping over the fire break are not worth the risk. Especially with the unkowns, like "urban campers" or whatever the current PC term is this week. The Incident Commanders can be held civilly accountable for accidental loss or mistakes, so no one in the fire service will touch this type of project for fear of potential lawsuit.
As far as brush clearance goes, it's an insurmountable task. 100 years of accumulated under brush across the state (not to mention, bark beetle die off) has created so much unburned fuel, the cost and man hours to bring in under control are unimaginable. Consequently, the answer ends up to be, do nothing.
The drought contributes to the problem, but even in wet years, the moisture creates more growth that dries in the summer. Adding to the fuel load.
I could talk your ear off about all of these issues, but that's the Reader's Digest version.
No argument here. But that doesn’t mean you as a homeowner can’t do your part. While the loss of property in the last Malibu fire was in no way chill, wtf. $15k gets you a dank home suppression set up (hoses, pump, and retardant) that works even better if you have a swimming pool...
 

sizzld1

Phil Edwards status
Mar 31, 2009
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Just watched a doco on Netflix going over a lot of what you're saying Firebird. It was depressing and anxiety inducing. Living in a California fire zone it's really just a matter of when, not if.
 

Chocki

Phil Edwards status
Feb 18, 2007
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HAHAHAHAHA!
Yeah, sprinklering your property to protect against wildfire? Good luck with that. I've watched 250 gal/min fire streams evaporate from the heat of the head of a fire before the water even touches the flame.
How about fires that burn so hot that they ignite the paint on a hydrant, so that when you locate a hydrant and attempt to connect to the hydrant to establish a water supply, you can't because your water supply is on fire!!!!
Strange days indeed. Doesn't look like it'll get better any time soon.
You really sounded like you know what you’re talking about in your previous posts so I’m surprised you didn’t know that those systems are primarily for dousing your home and the surrounding vegetation/brush with retardant in advance.

1623085702865.jpeg

1623085764796.jpeg
 
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PRCD

Tom Curren status
Feb 25, 2020
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Seems like they could put IR cameras with a 360 degree field of view and wide elevation beamwidth and create an early warning system. I suppose many of the canyons are too steep for this to work. Balloons could work too, like the Beast of Kandahar.

I moved last year just before the 3rd fire in 4 years. This time, it burned part of my neighborhood. There is no political will to solve this problem.
 

Firebird

Gerry Lopez status
Jun 5, 2010
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You really sounded like you know what you’re talking about in your previous so I’m surprised you didn’t know that those systems are primarily for dousing your home, etc with retardant.

View attachment 110883

View attachment 110884
Yep. I know about them. They are hit and miss. The photo examples you showed are the success stories.
Some of the fires over the passed several years have burned so hot, that no amount of fire protection and all of the firefighters in the world can suppress or extinguish.
And these types of fire conditions will continue to deteriorate.
 

One-Off

Tom Curren status
Jul 28, 2005
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33.8N - 118.4W
Seems like they could put IR cameras with a 360 degree field of view and wide elevation beamwidth and create an early warning system. I suppose many of the canyons are too steep for this to work. Balloons could work too, like the Beast of Kandahar.

I moved last year just before the 3rd fire in 4 years. This time, it burned part of my neighborhood. There is no political will to solve this problem.
Maybe some dedicates satellites? The economic cost of fires is so high, might it not be cost effective? But then, if a major part of the problem is a century of fire suppression creating an overabundance of fuel....
 

PRCD

Tom Curren status
Feb 25, 2020
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Maybe some dedicates satellites?
We already have VIIRS (Aqua/Terra). The satellites aren't persistent enough. Somethign like this would work and have 100% station-time:

The economic cost of fires is so high, might it not be cost effective? But then, if a major part of the problem is a century of fire suppression creating an overabundance of fuel....
There are solutions, but too many political factions to using them.
 

One-Off

Tom Curren status
Jul 28, 2005
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33.8N - 118.4W
HAHAHAHAHA!
Yeah, sprinklering your property to protect against wildfire? Good luck with that. I've watched 250 gal/min fire streams evaporate from the heat of the head of a fire before the water even touches the flame.
How about fires that burn so hot that they ignite the paint on a hydrant, so that when you locate a hydrant and attempt to connect to the hydrant to establish a water supply, you can't because your water supply is on fire!!!!
Strange days indeed. Doesn't look like it'll get better any time soon.
I'm guessing what you describe is happening in coniferous forests. I wonder if the oak/sycamore coastal chapparal fires get that hot?

I've heard some trees and bushes are like fire bombs. Creosote bushes? Eucalyptus?
 

Firebird

Gerry Lopez status
Jun 5, 2010
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Seems like they could put IR cameras with a 360 degree field of view and wide elevation beamwidth and create an early warning system. I suppose many of the canyons are too steep for this to work. Balloons could work too, like the Beast of Kandahar.

I moved last year just before the 3rd fire in 4 years. This time, it burned part of my neighborhood. There is no political will to solve this problem.
Yep, that's in the works. UCSD is establishing a network of cameras across the west for exactly that purpose. I know some guys working on the project. It's working so far, but it is a multi-year endeavor and continually evolving.
 
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One-Off

Tom Curren status
Jul 28, 2005
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A quick perusal makes me think it's better to be in a valley than on the slope of a hill.

The very same characteristics that make a home desirable in the urban/wilderness interface are the ones that make it especially vulnerable in a fire. Like this one we looked at a month or so ago, just before the Palisades fire. This one was in a valley (gully) albeit a densely wooded one-

 
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PRCD

Tom Curren status
Feb 25, 2020
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Yep, that's in the works. UCSD is establishing a network of cameras across the west for exactly that purpose. I know some guys working on the project. It's working so far, but it is a multi-year endeavor and continually evolving.
This problem is not technically-challenging. It has been solved a long time ago for defense applications. It doesn't need multiple years if we have the political will to solve it fast.
 

Firebird

Gerry Lopez status
Jun 5, 2010
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This problem is not technically-challenging. It has been solved a long time ago for defense applications. It doesn't need multiple years if we have the political will to solve it fast.
It's mostly financial and logistic. Having the funds and the manpower to set up the towers and cameras. So far, it works pretty well.
 

Chocki

Phil Edwards status
Feb 18, 2007
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Yep. I know about them. They are hit and miss. The photo examples you showed are the success stories.
Some of the fires over the passed several years have burned so hot, that no amount of fire protection and all of the firefighters in the world can suppress or extinguish.
And these types of fire conditions will continue to deteriorate.
The only sure things in life are death and taxes. But those pics sure are good advertising as far as I’m concerned.

Im also pretty sure I read somewhere that firefighters are more likely to defend properties that have a chance of being saved?