Are the Democrats about to cook up a fake war

PRCD

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i don't even know what all that means - try not to overthink it.
At the same time, try to think it. Apply the law of noncontradiction. If he's so dangerous, why can't he conquer a single country?
he is a direct threat to other countries - see Chechen, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Syria, Ukraine...
So less of a threat to other countries than our own. Also we fomented Syria. Georgia was the same thing as the Ukraine - they were trying to join NATO and are on Russia's border like Mexico is on ours.
as well as an often deadly threat to his critics, his dissidents, his minorities, his rivals, his political opponents, his journalists, etc etc etc.
So, like the President and FBI going after political rivals?
He built his career on bloodshed and waging war and Ukraine has become the right time and place to make a stand against him. that's it.
So we are fighting a proxy war with him and the Ukraine is not acting on their own.
 
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StuAzole

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Are you just tuning into the Ukraine?

Your moral universe is very black or white. What reasons did Russia give for invading? Could we have prevented an invasion through negotiations? Haven't we been meddling in the Ukraine for a long time?

"The last invasions" - you mean in the last several years? Between the time I became a midshipman to the time I graduated, the US had invaded 5 countries and we're still in all but 1 to this day. We subsequently added Syria and Libya and did military interventions in at least a dozen others. Here's the displacement toll of our wars only in the last 20 years:
What list do you have for countries Russia has invaded?
Putin would love to have you lol.

all of your logic can be pointed to Putin as well. He knew the west would help Ukraine but he invaded anyway. Why? Why not negotiate more? Russia has been the largest aggressor in Europe since 1945 - of course Ukraine wanted western support. Do you need me to run down Russia’s expansion? Should I start with the obvious USSR countries like Latvia and Estonia etc? Or should we move to Afghanistan? Or how about Chechnya? Georgia? Dagestan? Was Russia not in Syria too? Tajikistan? Their list is far longer than ours, dude.
 
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PRCD

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Putin would love to have you lol.

all of your logic can be pointed to Putin as well. He knew the west would help Ukraine but he invaded anyway. Why? Why not negotiate more?
What answers did I already give? What did he say?
Russia has been the largest aggressor in Europe since 1945 - of course Ukraine wanted western support.
So history began in 1945 from the Western point of view.
Do you need me to run down Russia’s expansion? Should I start with the obvious USSR countries like Latvia and Estonia etc?
Ok, but the USSR ultimately collapsed. You old guys think the USSR is still a thing when it ended in 1989. My dad says the same thing. The Boomer world began post-1945, but the world is not just a Boomer world.
Or should we move to Afghanistan? Or how about Chechnya? Georgia? Dagestan? Was Russia not in Syria too? Tajikistan? Their list is far longer than ours, dude.
Maybe. Do a side-by-side comparison. Anyways, if we're using "foreign countries invaded" as our ethical standard we're applying to Putin, we're not applying a consistent one since we've invaded so many directly or by proxy. Like I said, between the time I started as a midshipman to the time I graduated, we'd invaded 5 countries and are still in 4. What has Putin done by comparison since taking power? How does his death toll compare to ours?
 

sussle

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At the same time, try to think it. Apply the law of noncontradiction. If he's so dangerous, why can't he conquer a single country?

So less of a threat to other countries than our own. Also we fomented Syria. Georgia was the same thing as the Ukraine - they were trying to join NATO and are on Russia's border like Mexico is on ours.

So, like the President and FBI going after political rivals?

So we are fighting a proxy war with him and the Ukraine is not acting on their own.
lol, i still don't know what you're trying to say...parsing it out with a series of non sequiturs doesn't make you any clearer. maybe you should stick with the Thanos analogy.
 
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StuAzole

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What answers did I already give? What did he say?

So history began in 1945 from the Western point of view.

Ok, but the USSR ultimately collapsed. You old guys think the USSR is still a thing when it ended in 1989. My dad says the same thing. The Boomer world began post-1945, but the world is not just a Boomer world.

Maybe. Do a side-by-side comparison. Anyways, if we're using "foreign countries invaded" as our ethical standard we're applying to Putin, we're not applying a consistent one since we've invaded so many directly or by proxy. Like I said, between the time I started as a midshipman to the time I graduated, we'd invaded 5 countries and are still in 4. What has Putin done by comparison since taking power? How does his death toll compare to ours?
Our ethnicAl standard is irrelevant. Ukraine made the decision. They saw what Russia did to their neighbors under Putin and said fuvk you. And now it looks like they mad me the right call. you keep trying to discuss the US in a role they’re not really playing.
 
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hammies

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Ok, but the USSR ultimately collapsed. You old guys think the USSR is still a thing when it ended in 1989. My dad says the same thing. The Boomer world began post-1945, but the world is not just a Boomer world.
Putin's desire to rebuild Soviet greatness is obvious. Europeans correctly see this as a gigantic threat to continent-wide peace and stability. Rather than repeat the 1938 Czechoslovakia mistake of appeasing the threat, they went all-in (with America's help) of supporting Ukraine as much as possible. So far things are working out pretty well.

Learning from history can be a real thing.
 

Autoprax

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Vagina Point
Wasn't Putin pissed that the Soviet union disintegrated and now he was trying to put it back together?

At the same time, he wanted to hide his money in the west and do business with the west.

How about that fighting spirit of the Ukranians?

The book Red Notice really deliniates Putin's character well.

He's just a gangster who took over a country.
 

PRCD

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lol, i still don't know what you're trying to say...parsing it out with a series of non sequiturs doesn't make you any clearer. maybe you should stick with the Thanos analogy.
Maybe this is beyond you.

Our ethnicAl standard is irrelevant. Ukraine made the decision. They saw what Russia did to their neighbors under Putin and said fuvk you. And now it looks like they mad me the right call. you keep trying to discuss the US in a role they’re not really playing.
The US isn't playing a role? Why were our politicians over there from 2014 on? Why were we negotiating with Russia over the Ukraine leading up to Russia's February invasion? Couldn't Ukraine have done all that on their own? Why is the US supplying weapons, money, intelligence, and SOF "advisors" to Ukraine if we're not playing a role?
 

StuAzole

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Maybe this is beyond you.


The US isn't playing a role? Why were our politicians over there from 2014 on? Why were we negotiating with Russia over the Ukraine leading up to Russia's February invasion? Couldn't Ukraine have done all that on their own? Why is the US supplying weapons, money, intelligence, and SOF "advisors" to Ukraine if we're not playing a role?
I said you're suggesting a role we're not playing - that is, we're not at war - not that we're not playing a role at all. We've got no troops, and no skin in the game other than money and old weapons. It's not Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria. It's just not.

It's naive to suggest we don't have interests - economic and strategic - in the region, and insincere to suggest we shouldn't act to protect those interests, even if indirectly.

Why were we there? Because stability is good and war is bad, as we're seeing now. But "we" aren't the lead - Ukraine is, followed by the EU. And given the overlap between EU and NATO nations, we're obviously going to be involved too.

At the end of the day, there's only one guy responsible for the war - Putin. He's the aggressor, and it's turning out to be a huge fuck up. You can make excuses for him all day long, but that's the reality.
 
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PRCD

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I said you're suggesting a role we're not playing - that is, we're not at war - not that we're not playing a role at all. We've got no troops,
I have some water-front property to sell you. You seem completely ignorant as to how our SOF troops work.
and no skin in the game other than money and old weapons. It's not Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria. It's just not.
It extends well beyond that. You can read through this page and look at the pictures and captions to get a sense of our involvement there. It doesn't mention military advisors but open sources can inform you on that as well. I talked to a MARSOC guy who served there.
It's naive to suggest we don't have interests - economic and strategic - in the region, and insincere to suggest we shouldn't act to protect those interests, even if indirectly.
So we are there protecting our interests.
Why were we there? Because stability is good and war is bad, as we're seeing now. But "we" aren't the lead - Ukraine is, followed by the EU. And given the overlap between EU and NATO nations, we're obviously going to be involved too.
If war is bad, why not make Ukraine neutral?
At the end of the day, there's only one guy responsible for the war - Putin.
Not according to what you've said above. It's like picking a fight - you shove a guy enough times and he might lose his temper and take a swing. We're the guy who picks the fight then calls the cops.
 

StuAzole

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I have some water-front property to sell you. You seem completely ignorant as to how our SOF troops work.

It extends well beyond that. You can read through this page and look at the pictures and captions to get a sense of our involvement there. It doesn't mention military advisors but open sources can inform you on that as well. I talked to a MARSOC guy who served there.

So we are there protecting our interests.

If war is bad, why not make Ukraine neutral?

Not according to what you've said above. It's like picking a fight - you shove a guy enough times and he might lose his temper and take a swing. We're the guy who picks the fight then calls the cops.
Why do you think we can tell Ukraine to be neutral? Why not make Russia neutral?

did we force Putin to fight in Georgia and Chechnya and Dagestan etc? Why do you have such a hard time seeing the pattern?
 

PRCD

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Why do you think we can tell Ukraine to be neutral?
Because we've been telling them to do so many other things. We fomented the 2014 Euromaidan revolution, for example. Read Victoria NuLand's page. Elsewhere, we've bragged about the Ukraine's integration with NATO and their familiarity with American weapons, which is why we're sending them. You're familiar with the concept of a client or vassal state?
Why not make Russia neutral?
The Russians proposed joining NATO after the collapse of the USSR which would've been another solution to this problem.
did we force Putin to fight in Georgia and Chechnya and Dagestan etc? Why do you have such a hard time seeing the pattern?
You seem completely ignorant or naive about geopolitics, the concept of spheres of influence, and range of short-range missiles. Let's look at another analogy. How would we feel if Russia fomented a color revolution in Mexico and subsequently started running joint military exercises on Mexican soil towards the inclusion of Mexico into a military alliance including parking Russian short-range nuclear-capable missiles on Mexican soil aimed at Washington DC? We actually have a historical example of this - the Cuban missile crisis. Did we see this as an act of aggression? (yes) Happily, we were able to resolve it through back-channel face-saving NEGOTIATIONS afaik. It didn't lead to us sending the marines into Cuba or from Guantanamo Bay.
 
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sussle

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The scientist that believes that the bible is literally true :foreheadslap:
right. keeps cranking out bizarre analogies (Thanos!) and non sequiturs to gaslight Putin's egregious behavior.

It's like picking a fight - you shove a guy enough times and he might lose his temper and take a swing. We're the guy who picks the fight then calls the cops.
i cannot even make sense of this, in the context of Ukraine - can anyone?
 
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PRCD

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right. keeps cranking out bizarre analogies (Thanos!) and non sequiturs to gaslight Putin's egregious behavior.

i cannot even make sense of this, in the context of Ukraine - can anyone?
Help's on its way, friend.
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