Are the Democrats about to cook up a fake war

Sharkbiscuit

Duke status
Aug 6, 2003
26,265
19,093
113
Jacksonville Beach
You evaded my questions.

I think you just answered your own questions there - Napoleon and Hitler, but you omitted the Kaiser. Millions dead on the Eastern front. Russian history goes back further than 1945.
Napoleon was pre-1945 last I checked. Your questions were not directed at me, and I thought the general point of them was "What was the motivation for Russia to invade Ukraine?".

IMHO the Kaiser might have had the power to overrun the French/BEF in the West if he wasn't dealing with Baltic to Balkan problems.
 

sussle

Rabbitt Bartholomew status
Oct 11, 2009
8,390
7,766
113
More evasion. Sounds like you think war was the right outcome. Ok - looks like the Ukraine and, by extension, the US and NATO got what they wanted.
No, it sounds like you're turning his words around. Putin is the aggressor and checking his aggression is the right thing to do. Blaming the abused and excusing the abuser is not the right thing to do.
 

PRCD

Tom Curren status
Feb 25, 2020
12,514
8,549
113
No, it sounds like you're turning his words around. Putin is the aggressor and checking his aggression is the right thing to do. Blaming the abused and excusing the abuser is not the right thing to do.
Before he aggressed (sp), we could've avoided the whole thing by signing a piece of paper ensuring Ukraine would not join NATO. We could've prevented him from aggressing, and if he still aggressed we could do what we're doing now with far more moral authority since we verbally agreed not to march the borders of NATO eastward - Russia's concern due to the 3 Western invasions in the preceding two centuries.
 

PRCD

Tom Curren status
Feb 25, 2020
12,514
8,549
113
"Kiev, the cradle of Russian Orthodoxy, was now transformed into the "ancient capital of the Ukraine" and the town of residence of the new Hetman, but it had changed very little. The people continued to speak Russian, although the signboards and street names were written up in a dialect which neither the Russians nor the Little Russians understood. The Hetman had given instructions that the official language was to be the Ukrainian tongue. The best of the thing was that the Hetman, although of Little Russian descent, could understand neither the Little Russian language nor his own native tongue, the so-called "Ukrainian." Skoropadsky’s first words were. "I am relying on you: would you like to be my chief-of-staff? We will soon have a powerful Ukrainian army."

I answered that since I had no stake in the Ukraine and knew nothing about local conditions, it would not be right for me to occupy the position. The two of us talked at great length. I was sure that the World War, which was still going on, would end in the defeat of Germany, and that the Germans, who were supporting the Hetman, would be forced to evacuate Russia. Once this happened, the Hetman's Government would fall, and furthermore, since Germany was lending her support for purely selfish reasons, she would never tolerate the formation of a strong Ukrainian army. "
 
  • Dislike
Reactions: mundus

StuAzole

Duke status
Jan 22, 2016
28,249
9,456
113
More evasion. Sounds like you think war was the right outcome. Ok - looks like the Ukraine and, by extension, the US and NATO got what they wanted.

Trillions spent over 20 years, thousands of Americans dead, tens of thousands maimed, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead, millions displaced, new client state for Iran.

How'd we end up staying for decades?
What i think is irrelevant. Im not much of a nationalist, but every nation needs to do what it needs to do. And in this case, Ukraine decided that war was better than the alternative.

like I said, I was never in favor of Iraq. But the problem wasn’t military might, it was planning how to handle once the immediate objective was met. Bush had no plan. Putin, on the other hand, hasnt even come close to finishing the immediate objective.
 

PRCD

Tom Curren status
Feb 25, 2020
12,514
8,549
113
What i think is irrelevant. Im not much of a nationalist, but every nation needs to do what it needs to do. And in this case, Ukraine decided that war was better than the alternative.
In your opinion, the Ukraine was deciding completely on its own? What of those Atlantic Council (a NATO publication) articles on bolstering "democracy" in Ukraine, of Victoria Nuland and her husband Kagan, Lindsey Graham, Hunter Biden, and John McCain going over there? What were top elected officials doing there? Why was the Ukrainian army conducting joint exercises with NATO?

Seems like all sides are getting what they threatened or wanted - war.
 

mundus

Duke status
Feb 26, 2018
36,724
15,942
113
In your opinion, the Ukraine was deciding completely on its own? What of those Atlantic Council (a NATO publication) articles on bolstering "democracy" in Ukraine, of Victoria Nuland and her husband Kagan, Lindsey Graham, Hunter Biden, and John McCain going over there? What were top elected officials doing there? Why was the Ukrainian army conducting joint exercises with NATO?

Seems like all sides are getting what they threatened or wanted - war.
the Ukrainian people chose the west, sorry Authoritarian apologist.
 

StuAzole

Duke status
Jan 22, 2016
28,249
9,456
113
Before he aggressed (sp), we could've avoided the whole thing by signing a piece of paper ensuring Ukraine would not join NATO. We could've prevented him from aggressing, and if he still aggressed we could do what we're doing now with far more moral authority since we verbally agreed not to march the borders of NATO eastward - Russia's concern due to the 3 Western invasions in the preceding two centuries.
Who is this "we" you're speaking of? "We" aren't fighting anyone. Ukraine is. It's their land, it's their men and it's their decision.

But others have already said it - Ukraine isn't the aggressor, Russia is.

PS - the last invasions have all been Russian. Just like history exists before 1945, it exists after 1945 as well.
 

hammies

Duke status
Apr 8, 2006
15,587
14,215
113
Was Putin's intention to destroy? Why didn't he start flattening Kiev immediately?
I suspect Putin originally thought Ukraine would fold quickly and the Red Army could march into Kiev and he could install his puppet government with little destruction, and Russia would own a relatively intact Ukraine.
 

Subway

Administrator
Staff member
Dec 31, 2008
13,497
10,110
113
LBNY
Exactly and when that didn’t happen he should have swallowed his immense pride, did an about face, and after a few weeks of headlines and late night jokes about his failed venture the whole thing would have been forgotten in a month
 

PRCD

Tom Curren status
Feb 25, 2020
12,514
8,549
113
Who is this "we" you're speaking of? "We" aren't fighting anyone. Ukraine is. It's their land, it's their men and it's their decision.
Are you just tuning into the Ukraine?
But others have already said it - Ukraine isn't the aggressor, Russia is.
Your moral universe is very black or white. What reasons did Russia give for invading? Could we have prevented an invasion through negotiations? Haven't we been meddling in the Ukraine for a long time?
PS - the last invasions have all been Russian. Just like history exists before 1945, it exists after 1945 as well.
"The last invasions" - you mean in the last several years? Between the time I became a midshipman to the time I graduated, the US had invaded 5 countries and we're still in all but 1 to this day. We subsequently added Syria and Libya and did military interventions in at least a dozen others. Here's the displacement toll of our wars only in the last 20 years:
What list do you have for countries Russia has invaded?
 

sussle

Rabbitt Bartholomew status
Oct 11, 2009
8,390
7,766
113
Your moral universe is very black or white.
No, it's this particular issue that is very black or white - it is exactly what it looks like. Putin is a proven threat to everyone, one way or another, and needs to be stopped. At this moment in time, it's that simple. Be here now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Woke AF

PRCD

Tom Curren status
Feb 25, 2020
12,514
8,549
113
No, it's this particular issue that is very black or white - it is exactly what it looks like. Putin is a proven threat to everyone, one way or another, and needs to be stopped. At this moment in time, it's that simple. Be here now.
Like Thanos. Putin is like Thanos. But he is a a proven threat to everyone who can't even conquer Eastern Ukraine and is failing militarily? It seems like you guys want it both ways - he's an existential threat to Global Liberal Democracy and at the same time wholly incompetent.
 

sussle

Rabbitt Bartholomew status
Oct 11, 2009
8,390
7,766
113
Like Thanos. Putin is like Thanos. But he is a a proven threat to everyone who can't even conquer Eastern Ukraine and is failing militarily? It seems like you guys want it both ways - he's an existential threat to Global Liberal Democracy and at the same time wholly incompetent.
i don't even know what all that means - try not to overthink it. he is a direct threat to other countries - see Chechen, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Syria, Ukraine...as well as an often deadly threat to his critics, his dissidents, his minorities, his rivals, his political opponents, his journalists, etc etc etc. He built his career on bloodshed and waging war and Ukraine has become the right time and place to make a stand against him. that's it.